Alan Bates - Freedom etc.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Is there any clear history that can be laid out regarding what appears to be a convoluted mess of material -

The following terms would be good to see in a response:

Alan Bates

Chris Whent

Michael Cuscuna

Polydor

Fontana

Debut

Freedom

Arista

Arista/Freedom

Black Lion

(Candid)

(Strata East)

Date ranges might be good too.

This may be a useful reference:

http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Labels/freedom.htm

Thanks!

Mike

[Bill Fenohr]

From the Grove Dictionary Of Jazz:

"Freedom. Record label founded by Alan Bates as a subsidiary of Black Lion; it was later aquired by Arista, and formed the basis for the catalogue of Arista-Freedom."

[JSngry]

Exactly what are you looking for in terms of info, Mike? I have quite a few of the Arista/Freedom LPs, and can provide session info (as listed) & copyright/release dates, if that's part of what you seek.

[Chuck Nessa]

Why not use primary sources Alan and Michael?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I've bothered Cuscuna enough on the Andrew Hill lately - he came through with some good info too. The questions certainly could be answered by him (or Bates), but probably by a European (or American) collector too. I'm trying to determine the history of the material - which label issued what first - who was involved at what point - where did the material come from (was it recorded for the label or did some stuff get brought in already recorded).

Discographies seem to show Polydor as original issue for some of this - being in the U.S. I have all the stuff on Arista/Freedom, Black Lion (LP/CD), Freedom (LP/CD). Nothing on Polydor. Then there is the confusing post-Black Lion period (DA Music, 1201) but I can wait on that.

Mike

Edited February 18, 2005 by Michael Fitzgerald

[Chuck Nessa]

If I have time today a bit of digging should provide a basic outline for some of this stuff.

[brownie]

Mike, which Polydor original issues would you have in mind?

Trust you got that, from the Jazz Labels page at this site:

http://www.trombone-usa.com/jazz-labels_b.htm

Black Lion

One of the top jazz labels in England, Black Lion was founded by Alan Bates in 1968. The majority of its releases have featured Americans including Thelonious Monk (his final sessions as a leader), Bud Freeman, Barney Kessel (with Stephane Grappelli), Dexter Gordon, Earl Hines and Teddy Wilson. Although Black Lion generally emphasizes mainstream jazz, Abdullah Ibrahim and Sun Ra have also appeared on the label and a subsidiary called Freedom features avant-garde sets by the likes of Albert Ayler, Julius Hemphill, Oliver Lake, Roswell Rudd and Cecil Taylor, among others. In addition, British players (including Humphrey Lyttelton, Alex Welsh, Chris Barber and Freddy Randall) have recorded numerous sessions. Many of the Freedom releases were put out in the US by Arista in the mid- to late '70s and the 1990s DA Music has reissued quitte a few of the Black Lion and Freedom sets on CD.

-Scott Yanow

Edited February 18, 2005 by brownie

[AllenLowe]

this I would like to see in coherent form - in my jazz-development years I bought a ton of that stuff, and was frequently confused as to origin (and I always wondered if Bates was the English actor; I know now that he wasn't) - there was also a lot of bad sound, bad pressing, bad original sources, god-knows-what. I'd also like to see the paper trail of how all this was set up, contracted for, and issued. It would be a good supplement to the skectchy history we have of 1960s jazz -

[Michael Fitzgerald]

For example, the July 2, 1968 Charles Tolliver date I know as "Paper Man" (Arista/Freedom AL 1002) is listed in Bruyninckx (& Lord) as being issued first on Polydor 2460 139. Lord then says in the notes "All above titles also on Polydor 2460 139, Arista AL1002 (titled "Paper Man"), Black Lion BLP30117," etc. So Lord is already confused by listing the Polydor twice. Bruyninckx lists it only as the first issue, starting the equivalents list with AL1002.

So if Freedom was established AFTER Black Lion as some kind of subsidiary - was this a Freedom recording? If so, why not first issue on Freedom or Black Lion? Where does Polydor get involved? If not a Freedom recording, what is the source - are there a body of similar recordings that can be grouped together?

Bruyninckx (& Lord) list Stephane Grappelli [i know, not a Freedom artist] being first issued on Black Lion THEN reissued on Polydor (same series, 2460 105).

Then there is the RCA connection - Art Ensemble: The Spiritual (and others) shown to be on RCA/Freedom - is this different from plain old Freedom? Number (FLP 40108) aligns with what is listed elsewhere as plain old Freedom (Ornette In Europe - FLP 40102, FLP 40103). Yeah, I know, foolish consistency, hobgoblin, blah blah blah.

Are we getting into issues of distribution or was this a case of ownership/subsidiary or leasing/whatever?

Mike

[Chuck Nessa]

This is going to be messy – I’m in a hurry and this what pops into my head.

Random observations of Bates/Black Lion/Freedom, etc.

Early ‘60s Bates produces sessions and leases them to Polydor, Fontana and maybe more labels.

He begins acquiring masters from other labels and producers – Debut titles, stuff from Stanley Dance, Chris Albertson, etc.

The Polydor relationship evolves into a Black Lion series on the Polydor label. In this case both Polydor and Black Lion item numbers are printed on the sleeves.

At the end of the ‘60s Bates starts Freedom imprint to release more “modern” titles. These are initially distributed by Polydor as well.

Black Lion and Freedom were part of his “parent corporation” called Phonoco. Not sure when Phonoco was formed.

At some point Bates started licensing/distributing the material to different companies in different markets – Intercord in Germany, RCA in France, Audio Fidelity (Black Lion only) in the US, Arista (Freedom only) in the US, etc. There must have been some trademark problem in France since all the RCA issues were on the Freedom label, including Earl Hines and Dexter.

After the Polydor deal ceased he started manufacturing and distributing his own stuff in GB as well.

At some point he began a distribution arrangement with DA in Germany and somehow they wound up owning the labels and masters.

Separate from his Phonoco operations, he acquired the Candid jazz masters and began producing new releases for the imprint.

[Christiern]

• Some sessions that eventually wound up on Black Lion were originally issued on Fontana--that includes 4 albums sold by me to Alan. BTW: Don't deal with him, if you can avoid it.
  
  Apropos that, Alan was attending a Sun Ra gig at Slugs, many years ago. At one point Sun Ra moved between the tables, swinging into the air a golden vessel from which there emanated a church-like incense. It was all very Pop-ish, Alan told me. When Sun Ra reached Alan's table, his head swooped down to the level of Alan's ear and, without missing a move of the incense, he whispered, "Where the fuck are my royalties?"
  

I've told this story before, possibly here, so I apologize to those who have already heard it.

I just noticed that Chuck has explained Alan's deals quite well--thanks Chuck. And, Allen, you were not too far off--this Bates was a bit of an actor, too.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Christiern

[Michael Fitzgerald]

This helps a ton. I was able to look at a lot of the items today. The Polydors that have BOTH numbers - oh man, what a nightmare for a discographer. Institute of Jazz Studies files them under Polydor, ignoring the Black Lion numbers.

All the leasing/licensing info is very good too.

Mike

[couw]

Interesting story. Plus another look at the funny "bike-saddle" cover. Mine looks like this (Intercord):

[Chuck Nessa]

Just to add to the confusion, I noticed my Earl Hines/Paul Gonsalves lp on French RCA/Freedom has a Black Lion number (BLP 30153). "Real" Freedom releases were in the FLP 40000 series.

[AllenLowe]

actually, I was thinking of it as the Toilet Seat cover -

[Chuck Nessa]

Just remembered this story from 25+ years ago. Dexter Gordon to Michael Cuscuna - "What's the deal with Alan Bates?". MC starts "Well, he's a tenor player" and Dex cuts him off, laughing and says "Say no more, that explains everything".

[Christiern]

You mean toilet, as in "head"?

[John Delaney]

Just to add a bit to what has already been said - and this is from memory so usual caveats.

The dual catalogue numbering was because you could order them from two sources: the Polydor number to order from Polydor (Polygram was the parent company). The Black Lion number to order from an independent supplier (there may have been more than one of these).

Alan Bates is still around, as far as I know, and now owns only the Candid bit.

The Black Lion material has been on no end of labels over the years; just to mention one that hasn't been referred to and that is Jazz Colours but that may be part of the DA Music empire. (Just had a look; yes it is).

[Daniel A]

The AL 1002 release says:

(P) & © 1975 Arista Records Inc

Distrubuted by Arista Records Inc. N.Y.

N.Y. owner of the trademark Arista

Record Licenced from Black Lion Ltd. owner of the trademark Freedom.

[Rooster_Ties]

Not sure if this thread is the most appropriate place to ask this -- but does anybody know why some Black Lion titles sound like THE worst recorded studio sessions of any recorded during the last 50 years???

I don't have both the vinyl and CD's versions to compare, but from what I've heard from others here and back on the BNBB -- both formats are equally retched. The two I'm most familiar with, that suck the worst, are Stanley Cowell's BRILLIANT CORNERS, and Philly Joe Jones’ MO' JOE. I suspect there may be some others that are equally as bad.

What's the story with some of these titles being recorded so poorly?? – seemingly in the first place.

And more than technically why they sound so bad, I'm wondering is there's some back-story as to why they're so bad, perhaps related to the convoluted label issues. (And if not, no need to derail the thread.) Just curious, thanks.

[Philip]

I seem to recall Humphrey Lyttelton playing a Black Lion reissue onhis radio show and saying that the master tape had been buried in a motorway pylon for a couple of years (presumably so that it could be written off against tax). Obviously, all this does not explain the sound of original issues, but is another example of Bates' buisness practices.

[sidewinder]

The 1970s Black Lion vinyl was notoriously bad. I recall lots of warped LPs - the Clarke/Boland 'On Her Majesty's Pleasure' has great music but the vinyl sucks. Same problem with my Carmen McRae 'November Girl'. I even got rid of a Charles Tolliver 'Live At The Loosdrecht Jazz Festival' 2LP for a couple of quid because of this concern (although since then I've regretted it somewhat ).

I recall that that 'Loosdrecht' 2LP had the Polydor/Black Lion double imprint and the very same 'toilet seat' cover !

Edited February 21, 2005 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

the master tape had been buried in a motorway pylon for a couple of years (presumably so that it could be written off against tax)

Alon with the master tapes for 'The Wicker Man' no doubt ! M4 Heathrow?

[Christiern]

I am not pleased with the sound on the four sessions I sold to Bates (all of which were issued on Fontana and Black Lion. There was a Cliff Jackson solo album; a Bud Freeman Quartet; a session with Roy Eldridge, Freeman, Elmer Snowden, Jo Jones, Ray Bryant; and a Howard McGhee date with George Coleman and Junior Mance.

I could not afford the studio I really wanted, so I had to settle for one that was owned by a bass player who tended to boost his instrument of choice. Two-track did not give one much of a remix option.

[sidewinder]

I have a UK Fontana LP of the Howard McGhee with George Coleman. A nice session !