The Soprano Saxophone

[Jazzmoose]

I don't know beans about mouthpieces, Robert, but judging by your description of the result in your last sentence, I think you're on to something!

[robert h.]

heh-heh...whatever happened to the good old days when tenor players tended to double on flute? Now it seems the soprano has taken the place of the jazz flute.

Bring back the flute doublers!!

[Late]

Post - 1970 post-Wayne Shorter/Liebman/Grossman etc. - they are using small chamber, higher baffle screamers designed to project, but do so at the expense of tone.

Into the 90's, Lacy was using a mouthpiece (can't remember the make) that was a 12* bore. That, with an alto ligature — I don't think there's ever been a larger sound on the small horn.

But I think I know what you mean about some soprano players' tendency to go for that "piercing" sound. It gives me the creeps.

[robert h.]

LOL...12* soprano...might as well strap the reed onto an open rubber pipe!!!

On another idea why there is a tendency for soprano playing to make animals run for cover -

people like Lacy PLAYED the soprano...too many players today double on it but never actually learn it! That's another reason they use high baffle, narrow chamber, medium tip screechers. Limited embrochure development and maximum impact. You won't see the likes of Lacy and a 12* anymore, I think.

[frank m]

Before you guys decide on who has the loveliest tone on soprano, give a listen to Bob Wilber. Then decide.

[Late]

Before you guys decide on who has the loveliest tone on soprano, give a listen to Bob Wilber. Then decide.

Have done it!

Wilber "world-premiered" Sidney Bechet's recently discovered score for a ballet here five years ago. The whole thing (music, dance, stage, lighting) was well-produced, and Wilber's tone was indeed gorgeous. I went with my wife, parents, brother, and sister-in-law — not all of them really fans of "jazz" — and they loved it.

I dig those Gottlieb photos of Wilber and Bechet together.

[Late]

LOL...12* soprano...might as well strap the reed onto an open rubber pipe!!!

I know. Crazy, but true.

I've also read that Lacy was never fully happy with his horn. (Well, what saxophonist is.) At one time, back in the early 50's evidently, he had a gold-plated soprano — but I can't remember the model! He sold it out of financial need, and then regretted it for years.

I went through some old DownBeats last night trying to find the facts behind these statements (and to check my memory), and came up empty-handed. I ended up reading through a 2002 Lacy interview, though, and it just made me depressed. He was talking at length about all his plans for musical activity in the States: duo concerts with Danilo Perez and then Gerri Allen, performing The Cry and Futurities again ... damn.

Never once did I hear him live.

[catesta]

youy know it's weird - but I hate that damned instrument - I love the older players, and Lacy, Bechet, etc - but I cannot listen to the instrument post-1970 no matter who's playing it or how well it's played. I'm not defending myself, as a matter of fact I throw myself on the mercy of the organissimo body, but it's come to be like the jazz flute for me - I hear it and go on to the next cut - anybody else like me here?

You are not alone. Although I like jazz flute, so maybe you are...

Not a huge fan of the soprano either.

It's not all bad, but not among my favorite instruments, I'd rather hear a clarinet, go figure. B-)

I've got no gripes with the flute.

[Д.Д.]

David, I've heard Doneda, but have never even heard Rainey's name. Thanks! The AMG bio makes his music sound pretty interesting. Will have to check it out. Any particular recs?

Late, I have only two records under his name:

"Ink." on Sachimay - a solo recording, which might be the best exposure to Rainey as soprano saxophonist.

"Crawlspace/ Universal Noir" on Tautology (OOP, but can be located). THis one has both solo tracks and duos/trios with Jack Wright (another "extreme" saxophone master) and trumpeter Taylor Ho Bynum.

Rainey is also working in nperign project with trumpeter Greg Kelley -but there the soprtano saxophone is barely recognizable. In general, with nperign (at least on their discs that I've heard) there are ......................very........................few......................sounds

Check out Bhob Rainey's website (should have samples): http://bhobrainey.net/

[frank m]

One further comment about Bob Wilber's tone on soprano. You guys who hate the soprano should really give Wilber a listen. His tone is completely unlike the nasal quality that some people get into the instrument. ( I say this as someone who gave up playing because of my lousy tone)

[Late]

Thanks David and JG. Rainey goes onto "the list." I'm all for that approach to playing (which perhaps Lacy and Parker pioneered?).

Frank — count me in as a Wilber fan. What I especially like about his playing is that his use of tremolo (I won't even say vibrato) is often more controlled than Bechet's.

I wonder what kind of mouthpiece Bechet used ...

[Late]

The more I listen to Sam Rivers on soprano, the more I like it. Not just a "doubler" to my mind. His playing on soprano seems fairly distinctive from his playing on tenor.

Now, the sopranino — there's a horn I could probably do without. Braxton, Ochs ... I just can't get into the toy horn. When Lacy played the sopranino, he just made it sound (to my ears) like his soprano.

[jazzbo]

Barney Wilen

of course.

Right on John. Most beautiful sound on the horn if you ask me.

[jazzbo]

I love Bechet. I don't really care too much for Lacy and Parker, truth be told, sure I realize they're great players, but I don't listen to them much at all.

That's me and my taste.

I'm liking Wilbur more and more. . . .

[Peter Friedman]

I share the view that the soprano sax was a fine jazz instrument prior to the bebop period. I like Bechet,

Bob Wilbur, Jim Galloway, and some others.

Many of the modern soprano sax players get that piercing sound that at times reminds me of bagpies.

I do like Lucky Thompson and Zoot Sims on soprano and often enjoy Gary Bartz. However I much prefer lucky and Zoot on tenor and Bartz on alto. Many soprano sax players are doubling on that horn and are really tenor or alto players. In every case I prefer them on their original horn -tenor or alto.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Peter Friedman

[7/4]

up

I've been listening to Leib & Wayne lately. I should dig up some Garland, I know I have some.

.

[Rooster_Ties]

I'm generally not much of a fan of the instrument -- almost no matter who's playing it. I can take Wayne with Miles in '69 and '70, and that's about it (and not so much Wayne withOUT Miles) -- but that's more about context, than the instrument itself. Sam Rivers is OK too, but that's also about context, and Sam's tunes -- and even then, I'm still a MUCH greater fan of Sam on tenor (or flute) than on soprano.

But I do have ONE major exception to my "avoid soprano sax" rule, and that is NATHAN DAVIS (at least in the 60's). Can't say I've heard a lot of recordings with him on soprano, but double god damn if he doesn't play the instrument better in tune than just about anybody else I've EVER heard. His soprano work on "Happy Girl" and/or "Hip Walk" is sublime.

If more soprano players could play as well in tune as Nathan Davis does on "Happy Girl" and "Hip Walk" -- I wouldn't hate really dislike the instrument the way I do.

[marcello]

I suggest Tim Garland who not only has the best sound on soprano, but is a master of the instrument and a great composer. There's some sound samples on his website.

[king ubu]

I'm generally not much of a fan of the instrument -- almost no matter who's playing it. I can take Wayne with Miles in '69 and '70, and that's about it (and not so much Wayne withOUT Miles) -- but that's more about context, than the instrument itself. Sam Rivers is OK too, but that's also about context, and Sam's tunes -- and even then, I'm still a MUCH greater fan of Sam on tenor (or flute) than on soprano.

But I do have ONE major exception to my "avoid soprano sax" rule, and that is NATHAN DAVIS (at least in the 60's). Can't say I've heard a lot of recordings with him on soprano, but double god damn if he doesn't play the instrument better in tune than just about anybody else I've EVER heard. His soprano work on "Happy Girl" and/or "Hip Walk" is sublime.

If more soprano players could play as well in tune as Nathan Davis does on "Happy Girl" and "Hip Walk" -- I wouldn't hate really dislike the instrument the way I do.

Have you checked out Steve Lacy? This is not tongue-in-cheek (I originally intended it that way though, I confess) - he did some marvellous and very accessible things, not just freakishly out solo and duo improv albums. "Work" on the defunct Sketch label is a great one, in trio with Jean-Jacques Avenel and Daniel Humair, and maybe "Morning Joy", a live recording from the 90s on hatOLOGY, which adds fellow alto/soprano sax player Steve Potts and has John Betsch in Humair's place.

There are of course also his early three albums for Prestige/New Jazz, one with Wynton Kelly ("Soprano Sax", with Buell Neidlinger & Dennis Charles), one with Mal Waldron ("Reflections", their first Monk album, with Neidlinger & Elvin), and one with Don Cherry ("Evidence"), plus the Candid album with Charles Davis ("The Straight Horn of Steve Lacy", with John Ore & Roy Haynes).

These are not regarded as being among Lacy's best, but they might be to your liking.

The other name you should check out on soprano is Lucky Thompson - but him being a doubler I assume you have some of his albums. There's marvellous soprano playing on that disc on Freshsound which teams him with Tommy Flanagan, and also on half of "Lucky Strikes" (Prestige/Fantasy, with Hank Jones, Richard Davis and Connie Kay, I think).

To me, I think these are the two greatest, but then I still need to dig deeper into Wayne Shorter's works (his early recordings most of which I have, are tenor only...). There are others, I'm sure, and maybe that statement about "greatest" is stupid, it just reflects my current opinion anyway.

[BillF]

I'm generally not much of a fan of the instrument -- almost no matter who's playing it. I can take Wayne with Miles in '69 and '70, and that's about it (and not so much Wayne withOUT Miles) -- but that's more about context, than the instrument itself. Sam Rivers is OK too, but that's also about context, and Sam's tunes -- and even then, I'm still a MUCH greater fan of Sam on tenor (or flute) than on soprano.

But I do have ONE major exception to my "avoid soprano sax" rule, and that is NATHAN DAVIS (at least in the 60's). Can't say I've heard a lot of recordings with him on soprano, but double god damn if he doesn't play the instrument better in tune than just about anybody else I've EVER heard. His soprano work on "Happy Girl" and/or "Hip Walk" is sublime.

If more soprano players could play as well in tune as Nathan Davis does on "Happy Girl" and "Hip Walk" -- I wouldn't hate really dislike the instrument the way I do.

Have you checked out Steve Lacy? This is not tongue-in-cheek (I originally intended it that way though, I confess) - he did some marvellous and very accessible things, not just freakishly out solo and duo improv albums. "Work" on the defunct Sketch label is a great one, in trio with Jean-Jacques Avenel and Daniel Humair, and maybe "Morning Joy", a live recording from the 90s on hatOLOGY, which adds fellow alto/soprano sax player Steve Potts and has John Betsch in Humair's place.

There are of course also his early three albums for Prestige/New Jazz, one with Wynton Kelly ("Soprano Sax", with Buell Neidlinger & Dennis Charles), one with Mal Waldron ("Reflections", their first Monk album, with Neidlinger & Elvin), and one with Don Cherry ("Evidence"), plus the Candid album with Charles Davis ("The Straight Horn of Steve Lacy", with John Ore & Roy Haynes).

These are not regarded as being among Lacy's best, but they might be to your liking.

The other name you should check out on soprano is Lucky Thompson - but him being a doubler I assume you have some of his albums. There's marvellous soprano playing on that disc on Freshsound which teams him with Tommy Flanagan, and also on half of "Lucky Strikes" (Prestige/Fantasy, with Hank Jones, Richard Davis and Connie Kay, I think).

To me, I think these are the two greatest, but then I still need to dig deeper into Wayne Shorter's works (his early recordings most of which I have, are tenor only...). There are others, I'm sure, and maybe that statement about "greatest" is stupid, it just reflects my current opinion anyway.

I would just add Steve Lacy's work in 1957 on Gil Evans and Ten. Lacy's sound is just right amid Evans' orchestral textures.

[Big Beat Steve]

Speaking of Steve Lacy, his early recordings on Jaguar with the Dick Sutton band (reissued as "The Complete Jaguar Sessions") just left me speechless when I first heard them (after having bought the twofer on a whim as I figured that combination MUST be interesting). Probably some of the strangest "free Dixieland" ever made (but very accessible and enjoyable, and the soprano sax sound is just perfect for that combination).

[king ubu]

Will have to check that out, Big Beat Steve!

[Late]

Speaking of Steve Lacy, his early recordings on Jaguar with the Dick Sutton band (reissued as "The Complete Jaguar Sessions") just left me speechless ...

Do those sessions overlap with the Whitey Mitchell sessions? (From memory, I think half the Mitchell "sessions" were actually led by Sutton.) At any rate, those are worth hearing, even if one's not particularly a Lacy fan. What blows me away is how (in less than a year?) Lacy went from this music to Cecil Taylor's group without even as much as a hiccup.

[Big Beat Steve]

No, they don't. No Whitey Mitchell anywhere in the lineups of the two Sutton groups that produced those recordings. The bassist on both sessions is one Mark Trail, and no other Sutton recordings are known to discographers.

The Whitey Mitchell LP (his only one) on ABC Paramount was done about 2 years later.

[Late]

Don't want to be too negative, but Nathan Davis, especially on soprano, usually bores me. I had the albums that are listed above, but couldn't hear enough that sounded original to me, and parted ways. I do like Davis's Rules of Freedom, however.

I've never really checked out Lol Coxhill's soprano playing, but know that I should. Any recs as to where to start?

==========

An aside that some here already know — Rex Stewart "named" Lacy. Born Steven Lackritz, Stewart would call out "Lacy" when the latter was in Stewart's band. Something to do with pronunciation or spelling, and so Stewart shortened it.