Don Byas

[AllenLowe]

I will say, respectfully, that to consign Don Byas to "second chair" is utter nonsense - he is one of the GIANTS of the tenor, and you are looking at the wrong period to realize this. Listen to the Savoy's from middle 1940s - some with Max Roach. Amazing stuff, influenced Sonny Rollins. Harmoncally very advanced, predicting bebop clearly. The 1960s stuff is interesting, but has an odd tension that is never really resolved - I think his problem was that like a lot of ageing musicians, he was worried about keeping up with the times and was trying to change his whole rhythmic approach. I even recall remarks he made about Coltrane which indicated a clear jealously, based on the fact that, as he knew, Coltrane was very influenced by him, as were hundreds of tenor players -

Edited February 14, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Late]

I will say, respectfully, that to consign Don Byas to "second chair" is utter nonsense - he is one of the GIANTS of the tenor, and you are looking at the wrong period to realize this.

Probably not nonsense — I think we're just interpreting the term differently. There's no doubt he was a formidable, and influential, force on the tenor saxophone.

[AllenLowe]

well, yes, if by second chair you mean everyone after Hawkins -

[Chuck Nessa]

The 1960s stuff is interesting, but has an odd tension that is never really resolved - I think his problem was that like a lot of ageing musicians, he was worried about keeping up with the times and was trying to change his whole rhythmic approach.

I feel the same way. My favorite Byas dates are the various quartet/quintet sessions from the '40s. I love those.

[JSngry]

Listen to the Savoy's from middle 1940s - some with Max Roach. Amazing stuff, influenced Sonny Rollins. Harmoncally very advanced, predicting bebop clearly.

Well, couldn't you say that given the date(s), and the lack of any real competing vison, that this WAS bebop tenor, at least at the time? Maybe throw Lucky thompson in there too, but Lucky was coming out of Byas as well.

The maxim that Byas played like a Bebopper but accented like a Swing player is true enough, but hell, what other tenor players were hip/smart/facile enough to hang at the time in question?

This was discussed a while back, but the notion/evolution of "bebop tenor" is nowhere as simple as it is for other instruments.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

With all the comparison discussion of Byas and Hawk, the album Byas did with Ben Webster circa '69-'70 is definitely of interest. /This may be sacrilege to some but to my ears, Byas has the better of the day. Terrific version of "Caravan" wherein you can really hear the great contrast between the two styles. (I have a Prestige LP of this session, however it was originally issued on MPS - I have no idea how readily available the CD is).

Is this in print anywhere? I've got to get my hands on this one.

Kevin

[jazzbo]

Kevin, not cheap but available from djangos via half.com

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid...23&meta_id=null

[Dave James]

Just a quick clarification. Late is absolutlely correct in his interpretation of my "second chair" comment. This in no way denigrates the musical ability or musical contributions of Mssrs. Byas and/or Mobley. It was merely meant to convey the fact that they are underrecognized and underappreciated given the significance of their contributions to jazz.

Up over and out.

[AllenLowe]

well, I really would not call him a bebopper at this time, but someone who had effected and was effected by beboppers - better to look to Moody or Dexter Gordon or Sonny R. for early beboppers. Byas's tone and rhythm and associations (and repertoire) really hold him apart. And by the way I don't think that Byas/Webster album is really all that good. Webster sounds tired and Byas sounds tense -

[Free For All]

And by the way I don't think that Byas/Webster album is really all that good. Webster sounds tired and Byas sounds tense -

I had high hopes when I bought this CD years ago, but I also was disappointed. I wish they had made this recording ten or so years earlier.

[Chuck Nessa]

And by the way I don't think that Byas/Webster album is really all that good. Webster sounds tired and Byas sounds tense -

I had high hopes when I bought this CD years ago, but I also was disappointed. I wish they had made this recording ten or so years earlier.

I don't think age was the problem. I heard they were "falling down drunk" at the date.

[Free For All]

I don't think age was the problem.  I heard they were "falling down drunk" at the date.

In that case I wish they'd made this recording ten or so bottles earlier.

[JSngry]

Well, ok, not to quibble (although it will sound like I am), but in, say, 1945, or 1946, who WAS playing bebop tenor? There were bebop records being made, and there were tenor players on some of them. Dexter? Not exactly bebop, not yet. Moody? A little soon, still. Pretty much, you had Byas & Lucky Thompson. Not even Hawk at his most modern in those years sounded as organic to the music as Byas did.

My point, such as it is, is not that Byas played what came to be known as bebop. We can see that today, clearly. But that there for a few years, when certain elements of the style were still "open for negotiation" so to speak, if you heard a bebop record, and it had a tenor player, and that tenor player was playing "state of the art" in the context, odds are almost overwhelming that it was Don Byas.

Of course, other players eventually figured out (or, more likely, decided to) bring the Bird thing all the way over to tenor, and that's when Byas' playing began to be less than state-of-the-art in the idiom (I'll discount the whole "Brothers" school in terms of actually being "bebop" per se, although that's certainly not something I'll go to the mat for).

Actually, "bebop" might not be the right word, but I do think that "modern", in the context of the time frame, is. Which goes to the point of Byas' influence. If you're a young tenor player in 1946, and you're eating up all the bebop (or semi-bebop) records, who are are you going to use as a role model on your instrument if you don't want to go the Prez route or the Jacquet one? You buy those Dizzy RCA sides, and there's Don Byas sounding totally modern. You buy some Continental things, there's Don Byas, doing the same. etc. Ten years later, yeah, you've absorbed some more stuff, some "truer" bebop. But at the time, who've you got? Don Byas & Lucky Thompson (who like I said, showed a strong Byas prediliction early on). So waht I'm saying is that, before all the dust settled, for a little window of time, Don Byas WAS the modern tenor voice. The fact that he didn't remain that might have been a contributing factor to the bitterness he's said to have carried with him until the end.

That's my take on it, anyway. Happy to hear, and learn from, other's opinions.

[mike casinghino]

kevin, you can have my copy. the last time i listened to it i did not have any grey hair, now that's about all i have.

Edited February 14, 2005 by mike casinghino

[AllenLowe]

well, I think you're reversing cause and effect - I think the Byas we're hearing in 1944-1946 is, at this stage, reacting to the boppers - hence the slight modernization of his sound. Lucky Thompson also first recorded early 40s (I think, or maybe 1939), with Jonah Jones (Commordore I think) and he is also, at this point, primarily a swing tenor, but than a few years later is changed by the modernists - but neither was, out of the gate, a modernist. If we had to pick one, I would say Dexter Gordon, though (and I don't want to start a separate fire storm here) I never found his playing very compelling at any period - given the Savoy recordings, maybe the first bebop tenor player was Bird -

[AllenLowe]

just to add, I actually don't think Byas sounds that modern on those early Dizzy Recordings - he plays great, but is clearly from another generation - the tenor in those years is largely caught as an in-between instrument stylistically, thinking also early Gene Ammons with Dizzy's big band. Than there's Don Lanphere with Fats Navarro, more purely modern sides (maybe 1948) - and at this point we have Moody and Sonny R. - hey other old guys out there, are there any other early modern tenors I'm missing (also maybe Ray Abrams) -

Edited February 14, 2005 by AllenLowe

[MartyJazz]

With all the comparison discussion of Byas and Hawk, the album Byas did with Ben Webster circa '69-'70 is definitely of interest.  /This may be sacrilege to some but to my ears, Byas has the better of the day.  Terrific version of "Caravan" wherein you can really hear the great contrast between the two styles. (I have a Prestige LP of this session, however it was originally issued on MPS - I have no idea how readily available the CD is).

Is this in print anywhere? I've got to get my hands on this one.

Kevin

Kevin,

Don't listen to those who completely put down this date. While it is not an all around excellent session, to me the 9 minute version of "Caravan" alone is worth the price of admission. Looking at the liner notes to the Prestige LP issue of this session, I quote the following:

"The melody of CARAVAN is carried by Ben, and Byas' wild comments - he roars like a lion - are one of the highlights of the date. Also notable are Ben's keening crys during his solo - the competition with Byas obviously stirred him............I feel that jazz is a most generous art, which gives its creators an opportunity to live long and vital musical lives. On this album, Don Byas and Ben Webster exploit their opportunities to the utmost."

Anyone have a problem with those words, take it up with the author, Organissimo member, Larry Kart.

[AllenLowe]

no, I think it's a different Larry Kart - the one from St. Louis -

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I've been offered a copy by a friend of mine (thanks Mike) and I'm looking forward to hearing it. I simply cannot get enough Ben Webster... well, and Don Byas too.

Later,

Kevin

[MartyJazz]

no, I think it's a different Larry Kart - the one from St. Louis -

Are you serious? More than one Larry Kart and both into jazz? What are those odds?

Marty

[AllenLowe]

there's also one up in Montana - but he's a Baptist -

[marcello]

- hey other old guys out there, are there any other early modern tenors I'm missing -

Budd Johnson

In the same vein, I have always liked Ira Gilter's book "From Swing To Bop " because it covers many of same players and their involvement in the evolution of music during this peroid.

[JSngry]

Ah yes, Budd. How could I forget!

[Free For All]

Sangrey, what are your feelings about the Webster/Byas side? Am I missing something?

Just curious.

[Larry Kart]

No, that's me. But don't believe those liner notes. Last time I listened to the record, I thought that while there are some wild moments in the good sense, mostly it's out of control -- undoubtedly for the reason Chuck mentioned.