The troll who infests JC

[Cornelius]

We have a supposed quote (actually, not even a quote but a paraphrase of a paraphrase of something Wynton Marslis is supposed to have said). And, already people are stating what would be the implications if Marsalis had said something or meant by something he might have said, even though what is being proposed as something Marsalis might have said is not even conveyed in the original paraphrase of a paraphrase of what he's supposed to have said. That's five levels of supposition already.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Cornelius

[SGUD missile]

We have a supposed quote (actually, not even a quote but a paraphrase of a paraphrase of something Wynton Marslis is supposed to have said). And, already people are stating what would be the implications if Marsalis had said something or meant by something he might have said, even though what is being proposed as something Marsalis might have said is not even conveyed in the original paraphrase of a paraphrase of what he's supposed to have said. That's five levels of supposition already.

All that you say has merit as far as provenance of the alleged quote is concerned:

What tends to offset it somewhat are the many ACTUAL on-camera pontifications

and observable superior attitude evinced while making these statements ..

the actual evidence leads one to believe that POSSIBLY .nay, PROBABLY WM might have said something very similar to what was "quoted" ..

BTW: Grabbing a big left turn ..Branford has laid out some cold shit over the years himself ..but the combination of the WAY he does it ..and the fact he continues to back it upu with superior playing and writing IN MANY STYLES and approaches gives me reason to cut him a lotta slack!

BM

WM

[sonic1]

Regarding the troll. Damen hardly posts on any other topics. He waits around for a wynton comment and fires aways. In the many many debates we have had on wynton over there, he is the common denominator.

In the beginning he was only slightly polite, but uses a lot of passive aggressive language that just irks people. He knows he does it. He admitted it.

As far as the wynton quotes about hubbard and morgan: that is hearsay. So I can't debate that. Yet, he has said plenty ON RECORD that is almost equally arrogant. His comments about Miles were totally arrogant, and let me add, if he were white, he would never have gotten away with them.

I wager that Winnie gets away with a lot more because he is black and because he is Ellis' kid. I actually would hate him more if he were white and saying the shit he does about other musicians.

But after all that, I am still going to give winnie a chance, since admittedly I own only older WM records. I am going to give the newer ones a listen, at suggestion of wyntonites and be fair.

Personally I think he is all right as a player. Overrated does not mean terrible. If he were not the arrogant jerk I have come to know I would never have levelled so much critism on him just based on his musicianship.

As far as bringing the "shit" over here, I am glad this parallel thread continued here because maybe there are some wynton fans that could share a more level headed debate about the issue. Damen (and the damenites) make that impossible at the JC.

BTW Kevin Bresnahan, the only time I have had encounters with you here on organissimo you told me I shouldn't have posted my EAI thread to discuss music I like because some people don't like EAI. I am beginning to distrust your intentions.

[JSngry]

My impression of the quote - assuming it's even accurate - wasn't that WM necessarily thought himself better than Freddie or Lee, just that they're no longer around as competition. It's a subtle difference, perhaps, but not nearly as offensive imo.

My impression of the statement was that he deserved to be King becasue there ain't nobody better left alive., which is a pretty sick notion no matter how (or from whose perspective) you look at it.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

BTW Kevin Bresnahan, the only time I have had encounters with you here on organissimo you told me I shouldn't have posted my EAI thread to discuss music I like because some people don't like EAI. I am beginning to distrust your intentions.

If you're going to attribute stuff to me, get it right. What I said in that EAI thread is basically what I've said in this thread. I'll quote it for you: "Sonic1, isn't there plenty of discussion about this over on Jazz Corner? It has become a contentious topic over there. It seems to start up the same ol' "What is Jazz" stuff. Why bring that over here? I'd just as soon see it stay over there." Ditto that Wynton Marsalis thread from Jazz Corner. I don't come to these Jazz discussion boards for endless pissing contests. If you do, we have very different reasons for participating here.

Wynton Marsalis has become a "troll" topic at every Internet hang I've ever been at. rec.music.bluenote, Jazz Central Station, Jazz Corner, All About Jazz, Organissimo... ALL of them.

As for our other encounter, you must forget. It was on a thread at Jazz Corner where you dumped on the rock band U2. You almost made my ignore list over some of the arrogant put downs you made... of music you never heard.

BTW, I just did a search on the boards we go to. The reason you & I haven't met much here in cyberspace is because you rarely post on striaght-ahead Jazz topics. In fact, a majority of your posts over on Jazz Corner are political in nature. I stay away from political topics. They do nothing except separate us. I come here to talk about Jazz. I try not to let politics enter into it. There are plenty of political discussion boards around for that if I so choose. If I had my way, we wouldn't have a political board here either. It has caused tremendous problems on ocassion.

Later,

Kevin

Edited February 11, 2005 by Kevin Bresnahan

[JSngry]

We have a supposed quote (actually, not even a quote but a paraphrase of a paraphrase of something Wynton Marslis is supposed to have said). And, already people are stating what would be the implications if Marsalis had said something or meant by something he might have said, even though what is being proposed as something Marsalis might have said is not even conveyed in the original paraphrase of a paraphrase of what he's supposed to have said. That's five levels of supposition already.

Six, actually, with the sixth being your supposition that I haven't been around "the scene" long/deep enough to tell possible/probable from bullshit.

[rostasi]

Rod can tell you about Ellis...

Yes, but I try not to think of him.

Day late and a dollar short on this answer, but...

When you get a guy like Ellis who says, for example,

that Miles had no talent - NO talent! - and that he was just

"foolin' people" with his playing, then I can take Allen Lowe's

incisive comment about Wynnie and paste them right on ol' Ellis too:

that I hear Crouch talking (and to think that I use to enjoy his FD album

"Ain't No Ambulances...") Yes, truly, the apple falls not far from the tree Allen.

rod

---

Now playing: Gigi - Gudfella

[couw]

We have a supposed quote (actually, not even a quote but a  paraphrase of a paraphrase of something Wynton Marslis is supposed to have said). And, already people are stating what would be the implications if Marsalis had said something or meant by something he might have said, even though what is being proposed as something Marsalis might have said is not even conveyed in the original paraphrase of a paraphrase of what he's supposed to have said. That's five levels of supposition already.

Six, actually, with the sixth being your supposition that I haven't been around "the scene" long/deep enough to tell possible/probable from bullshit.

cool, that makes it seven!

[JSngry]

CanIgeteightwhollgimmeeightcmonnowletshaveaneighthurryhurryhurrysomebodygimmeaneightwhollitbenoweighteighteight

[couw]

heheheh B-)

[AllenLowe]

that's easy for you to say -

[AllenLowe]

byt the way, speaking of Wynton, does anybody remember the famous anti-semitic comment on Tony Brown's Journal from about ten years ago? Somewhere I have a cassette tape of it -

Edited February 11, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Christiern]

• I wonder how long it will take for Kevin B to realize that every thread is not required reading. If a thread is going to generate a hissy fit, skipping it is highly recommended, and certainly more prudent than appointing oneself a member of the thread police.
  

[rostasi]

byt the way, speaking of Wynton, does anybody remember the famous anti-semitic comment on Tony Brown's Journal from about ten years ago?  Somewhere I have a cassette tape of it -

Yup!

...and that's another guy that I used to like -

used to watch his show regularly when it was called "Black Journal" -

was even on his mailing list and received all kinds of good informative

pamphlets, books, etc...and then he went and got all "Mr. Washington Right-Wing"

on us. Sheesh!

---

Now playing: François Bayle - Grandeur Nature

[Christiern]

byt the way, speaking of Wynton, does anybody remember the famous anti-semitic comment on Tony Brown's Journal from about ten years ago? Somewhere I have a cassette tape of it -

• I don't recall hearing that remark, but Tony Brown lives two floors above me and he used to have many parties (no more) to which whites were not invited. As a matter of fact, he had a "No whites" sign on his door. That was in the 1970s, a time when he did not acknowledge the presence of whites in the elevator unless he was the only black passenger. He has passed that phase, so now he is quite friendly, again.
  
  All this to say that Wynton making an anti-semitic remark on Tony's show might not have bothered him. Do you recall his response.
  

[sonic1]

BTW Kevin Bresnahan, the only time I have had encounters with you here on organissimo you told me I shouldn't have posted my EAI thread to discuss music I like because some people don't like EAI. I am beginning to distrust your intentions.

If you're going to attribute stuff to me, get it right. What I said in that EAI thread is basically what I've said in this thread. I'll quote it for you: "Sonic1, isn't there plenty of discussion about this over on Jazz Corner? It has become a contentious topic over there. It seems to start up the same ol' "What is Jazz" stuff. Why bring that over here? I'd just as soon see it stay over there." Ditto that Wynton Marsalis thread from Jazz Corner. I don't come to these Jazz discussion boards for endless pissing contests. If you do, we have very different reasons for participating here.

Wynton Marsalis has become a "troll" topic at every Internet hang I've ever been at. rec.music.bluenote, Jazz Central Station, Jazz Corner, All About Jazz, Organissimo... ALL of them.

As for our other encounter, you must forget. It was on a thread at Jazz Corner where you dumped on the rock band U2. You almost made my ignore list over some of the arrogant put downs you made... of music you never heard.

BTW, I just did a search on the boards we go to. The reason you & I haven't met much here in cyberspace is because you rarely post on striaght-ahead Jazz topics. In fact, a majority of your posts over on Jazz Corner are political in nature. I stay away from political topics. They do nothing except separate us. I come here to talk about Jazz. I try not to let politics enter into it. There are plenty of political discussion boards around for that if I so choose. If I had my way, we wouldn't have a political board here either. It has caused tremendous problems on ocassion.

Later,

Kevin

Yeah, and you were the only one who popped to the EAI thread in to talk negative. That is a trollish to me.

I have a very large jazz collection, mostly of hard bop and bop. Yes, a heavy helping of AG and lately of EAI and other associated musics.

I post on subjects that span the spectrum. To site some recent posts I posted in Jimmy Smith threads, Jimmy Scott threads, Bobby hutcherson threads...but it does not matter. You got pissy cause I said bono of U2 was abnoxious-and not because I did not hear the music. But because I grew up with U2, owned most of their albums until the 90s and finally got tired of Bono's cooler than thou attitude.

I don't know where you got that I didn't know the music.

At any rate you should have PMed this to me instead of wasting cyberspace crapping in other people's threads.

[rostasi]

I don't recall hearing that remark, but Tony Brown lives two floors above me and he used to have many parties (no more) to which whites were not invited. As a matter of fact, he had a "No whites" sign on his door. That was in the 1970s, a time when he did not acknowledge the presence of whites in the elevator unless he was the only black passenger. He has passed that phase, so now he is quite friendly, again.

Hmmm...If only he knew who was on his mailing list...

---

Now playing: François Bayle - Grandeur Nature

[neveronfriday]

You got pissy cause I said bono of U2 was abnoxious-and not because I did not hear the music. But because I grew up with U2, owned most of their albums until the 90s and finally got tired of Bono's cooler than thou attitude.

Yep.

I can second that. Bono is just a pain in the neck with his holier-than-thou attitude. Mind you, he's been trying to do good things for third world countries and is not veering off the path, and I can appreciate that because he does have some clout in circles normal people have enough difficulties to reach (if at all), but after years of enjoying U2 I just got tired of the attitude spilling over into the music (plus the cool factor mentioned above) and I'm simply tired of hearing the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaame stuff over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Boooooooooooooooring!

And someone should get them a better sound engineer, to boot.

Cheers!

(Sorry. I did not intend to hijack this thread.)

***********************************************************************

Reading this thread here I'm still wondering if anyone is actually going to chime in with some serious analysis of Marsalis' music (and yes, I'm quite aware that posters have done this on other boards or in other threads), because if that ain't happenin', what's the point of this thread other than bashing WM again? What's the point? That's just as boring and repetitive as the above-mentioned U2 material.

Cheers!

[pryan]

• I wonder how long it will take for Kevin B to realize that every thread is not required reading. If a thread is going to generate a hissy fit, skipping it is highly recommended, and certainly more prudent than appointing oneself a member of the thread police.
  

[sonic1]

I would love to hear some good discussion of the music, in detail. That is what I was trying to draw out of those guys before. I will definately be giving some specific thoughts when I listen to some more current stuff. That is why I keep coming back to this thread, in hopes...

[rostasi]

I post on subjects that span the spectrum. To site some recent posts I posted in Jimmy Smith threads, Jimmy Scott threads, Bobby hutcherson threads...but it does not matter.

Hey! and you got a picture of one of the masters of electronic music as your avatar!

---

Now playing: François Bayle - Voyage au centre de la tête

[neveronfriday]

I would love to hear some good discussion of the music, in detail. That is what I was trying to draw out of those guys before. I will definately be giving some specific thoughts when I listen to some more current stuff. That is why I keep coming back to this thread, in hopes...

You know, I would, but I suck at it. All I can say is that what I've heard of his stuff (I have 6 CDs, all of which were bought second hand when I was simply out looking for new stuff) just leaves me cold. It's an instinctive thing - I have so much jazz that does it for me because it has that swing, it has originality, it has dedication, it has humor, it has sadness or joy, whatever. No matter what it is, it's music that moves me in some way, even if it only makes me laugh or behave stupidly (e.g., makes me dance).

So far, Marsalis does nothing for me.

None of the above and nothing else either.

That's the only problem I have with his stuff.

I don't enjoy it, and I move on to other recordings I have.

I do recognize that he's good technically, but so is Steve Vai, and although I have lots of his stuff from way back when, I'm going to sell it. Does nothing for me at all anymore. It never really did, but the technical abilities were fascinating.

And all of you who are now going to tell me to rid myself of my OP collection can just .... off.

Cheers!

[Big Wheel]

So far most of the recently released Wynton I've heard has this contrived swing to it but I'll admit to being invariably moved by the last disc of the Vanguard Box.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

• I wonder how long it will take for Kevin B to realize that every thread is not required reading. If a thread is going to generate a hissy fit, skipping it is highly recommended, and certainly more prudent than appointing oneself a member of the thread police.
  

Chris, if you'd stop trolling for anti-Wynton comments, I'd stop calling you on it. It's pretty simple.

All the stuff going on in this thread only solidifies my point: Wynton threads are always negative. Why do you start these things? Do you like all this negativity? And why don't you just reply on that Jazz Corner thread? You aren't banned. Crouch left. Put Damen on your "Ignore List" and post away.

BTW, Chris, "hissy fit" would imply that I'm getting angry. I stopped getting angry about these trollish threads long ago. I'm more disappointed than anything else. Sad, really.

And FYI people, the word troll, as applied to the Internet, was originally a verb. It was shortened from "trolling for newbies". It was originally "trolling for newbies" because when a thread was started just to stir shit up, most experienced posters recognized it and stayed away. Newbies would reply, fulfilingl the trolling poster's goal: starting a big bitch session. It's too bad so many regular Organissimo posters jump onto this thread. If we all realized it for what it was, it would sink away. And I think we'd be better off for it. Of course, if we were really lucky, our moderator would realize it's simply someone "trolling for newbies" and delete the thing.

Later,

Kevin

[sonic1]

Hmm...and I am the latest victom?