Sonny Rollins

[Mark Stryker]

2 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

I haven't read everything here, but the RCA stuff, IMHO, is epochal - coinciding as it does with a lot of film of Sonny, in Denmark in particular (IIRC) that is astounding; maybe 1964-66. His harmonic approach is amazing (I can say this as I try to copy him all the time; unsuccessfully of course) - he is playing these stacked, chromatic lines that, coupled with his amazing time and technique, are among the most amazing accomplishments by anyone, ever, in jazz. This is the period of which Larry Kart told me he thought Sonny to be, and I am paraphrasing, "one of the greatest artists in anything, ever." I concur.

As I often say: If I could do anything in life, it would  be play like Sonny Rollins on a good night in 1965. Like this -- 3 minutes of the greatest improvising over Rhythm changes I have ever heard. 

 

[JSngry]

I'd be ok with playing like this;

 

[AllenLowe]

1 hour ago, Mark Stryker said:

As I often say: If I could do anything in life, it would  be play like Sonny Rollins on a good night in 1965. Like this -- 3 minutes of the greatest improvising over Rhythm changes I have ever heard. 

 

that whole period is amazing, and that performance, yes.  Years ago I tried to stop sounding like Sonny. It is beyond impossible. Better men than me have died (musically) trying. I remember when Wayne Escoffrey was a local kid and one night I heard him trying to replicate Sonny like this. I had to admire the attempt and even the execution, but it just wasn't there. Even if I had heard it blind, I think I would have been able to clearly discern the disconnect between style as art/form and style as mannerism.

Edited December 12 by AllenLowe

[Mark Stryker]

21 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I'd be ok with playing like this;

 

So would I. Or like this:

 

[Holy Ghost]

On 12/12/2024 at 12:57 PM, AllenLowe said:

I haven't read everything here, but the RCA stuff, IMHO, is epochal - coinciding as it does with a lot of film of Sonny, in Denmark in particular (IIRC) that is astounding; maybe 1964-66. His harmonic approach is amazing (I can say this as I try to copy him all the time; unsuccessfully of course) - he is playing these stacked, chromatic lines that, coupled with his amazing time and technique, are among the most amazing accomplishments by anyone, ever, in jazz. This is the period of which Larry Kart told me he thought Sonny to be, and I am paraphrasing, "one of the greatest artists in anything, ever." I concur.

Wow. Second RCA. My favorite Sonny Rollins Chapter. 

[danasgoodstuff]

I'll be that guy - I find the RCA era, and the Impulse as well, to be kind of a mess.  All over the place in approach and the quality of the end results.  There certainly are things I love, and they're different than the other eras, but there's plenty that's just not there for me too. FWIW, which may not be much.  And as I think I've said here and probably more than once, I'm with JSngry in finding much to love in the last half of his career (Next Album to the end).

[Holy Ghost]

8 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I'll be that guy - I find the RCA era, and the Impulse as well, to be kind of a mess.  All over the place in approach and the quality of the end results.  There certainly are things I love, and they're different than the other eras, but there's plenty that's just not there for me too. FWIW, which may not be much.  And as I think I've said here and probably more than once, I'm with JSngry in finding much to love in the last half of his career (Next Album to the end).

Fair. Maybe it's the messiness that I like, but what a fascinating mess to get to hear genius in transformation. What a treat those RCA's and Impulse!'s are to allow us to look inside; to get a glimpse inside the evolving mind of Sonny Rollins; and I happily accept that invitation. 

Edited December 15 by Holy Ghost

[Peter Friedman]

For still another point of view:

Sonny Rollins Prestige and Blue Note recordings are what I find to be my favorite periods.

Some of his Impulse records are to my taste, but the RCA's not so much.

Most of what comes after the RCA albums are hit and miss for me. I love Sonny's sound on the Blue Notes and Prestige sessions.  His later tenor sound was less appealing to me. 

I saw Sonny live about 4 times from roughly 1965 - on to the next few decades. 

At times I found his playing  highly creative and often exciting, but his rhythm sections and sidemen were not very interesting.  

[jlhoots]

For me Saxophone Colossus was always the/a pinnacle.

[clifford_thornton]

5 hours ago, Holy Ghost said:

Fair. Maybe it's the messiness that I like, but what a fascinating mess to get to hear genius in transformation. What a treat those RCA's and Impulse!'s are to allow us to look inside; to get a glimpse inside the evolving mind of Sonny Rollins; and I happily accept that invitation. 

yes, the discursiveness of his language when it is really coming through is quite incredible. Again, my interest isn't quite held by his post-60s recordings that I have heard (that's a me problem, not a Sonny problem!) with a few exceptions, but it'll all be there when I dip back in.

[JSngry]

 

[Holy Ghost]

13 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

A Legend. Truly, a remarkable man. I'm so glad to have seen Sonny live at Severance Hall here in Cleveland, 2001, and then he extends his generosity/endowment on to Oberlin College; who hosts one of the best conservatories in Ohio, if not beyond; wow. a truly amazing human being. 

Edited December 16 by Holy Ghost

[felser]

On 12/15/2024 at 2:31 PM, clifford_thornton said:

 my interest isn't quite held by his post-60s recordings that I have heard (that's a me problem, not a Sonny problem!)

Not so sure it is a you problem.   A lot of coasting players on routine dates on a lot of those albums.

[JSngry]

58 minutes ago, felser said:

Not so sure it is a you problem.   A lot of coasting players on routine dates on a lot of those albums.

More than any of us would have liked. But...

Etc.

Coasting? Routine?

Nope.

There's not as much of that as would be ideal, but there's certainly more than the reflexive burpings of blanket denial will ever be able to admit to. Especially among those who simply "stopped listening". Talk about laziness...

Give up, ok. Fair enough. I went through a phase where I only bought some of this stuff used (and as cheaply as possible). But if you stop listening, stop having an opinion about what you're not listening to.

Fortunately these are days where a healthy curiosity can get you a damn good playlist  (for free) of about 45 years of damn good (and aging/evolving) tenor playing.

Old people will not play the same as young people. For that we should be thankful.

[danasgoodstuff]

32 minutes ago, JSngry said:

More than any of us would have liked. But...

Etc.

Coasting? Routine?

Nope.

There's not as much of that as would be ideal, but there's certainly more than the reflexive burpings of blanket denial will ever be able to admit to. Especially among those who simply "stopped listening". Talk about laziness...

Give up, ok. Fair enough. I went through a phase where I only bought some of this stuff used (and as cheaply as possible). But if you stop listening, stop having an opinion about what you're not listening to.

Fortunately these are days where a healthy curiosity can get you a damn good playlist  (for free) of about 45 years of damn good (and aging/evolving) tenor playing.

Old people will not play the same as young people. For that we should be thankful.

This, or something very like it.

[clifford_thornton]

13 hours ago, felser said:

Not so sure it is a you problem.   A lot of coasting players on routine dates on a lot of those albums.

perhaps, but he made the records, not any of us! Not that we have to like all of them (or any of them), but the work is there to be dealt with (or not). 

[soulpope]

3 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

perhaps, but he made the records, not any of us! Not that we have to like all of them (or any of them), but the work is there to be dealt with (or not). 

Fair enough .... btw was he ever asked/interviewed about his choices of co-players from 1970 onwards .... ?

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

perhaps, but he made the records, not any of us! Not that we have to like all of them (or any of them), but the work is there to be dealt with (or not). 

There it is!

I had one very good friend (a devout Traner) tell me that he loved Sonny, but he couldn't fully embrace him because Sonny was all about embracing joy. Whereas Trane was all about the passion of the work. Joy, when it happened, would be a side effect of the work.

I answered by saying the for Trane, death was a good career move, then. He left a fixed body of work and didn't have to deal with the 70s and beyond.

He knew what I meant. But I didn't tell him that work and joy are different sides of the same coin.

God bless David Lee.

[Niko]

2 hours ago, soulpope said:

Fair enough .... btw was he ever asked/interviewed about his choices of co-players from 1970 onwards .... ?

what I found illuminating was the passage about the Sonny Rollins tryout and the very modest salary offer in Charles Farrell's autobiography (not that much jazz content in the book because there wasn't a lot of money to be made)

[soulpope]

13 minutes ago, Niko said:

what I found illuminating was the passage about the Sonny Rollins tryout and the very modest salary offer in Charles Farrell's autobiography (not that much jazz content in the book because there wasn't a lot of money to be made)

So it was about money .... ? Still believe that in the 70's jobs/gigs were scarce and and even very good musicians had to make a living ....

[Niko]

10 minutes ago, soulpope said:

So it was about money .... ? Still believe that in the 70's jobs/gigs were scarce and and even very good musicians had to make a living ....

that's what a guy who turned down the job and left the music business for a, well, criminal career (link, video) said... somewhere in the book, he points out that a turning point for him was the humbling realization that from a purely financial viewpoint being Miles Davis is fine but being Charles Mingus is not any more attractive than many, many other non-musical careers out there... but the Rollins job really didn't sound too attractive financially, also compared to other music jobs he had... I guess he had this expectation that playing with Sonny Rollins was the big time, which it was in some ways, but not in others

[soulpope]

29 minutes ago, Niko said:

that's what a guy who turned down the job and left the music business for a, well, criminal career (link, video) said... somewhere in the book, he points out that a turning point for him was the humbling realization that from a purely financial viewpoint being Miles Davis is fine but being Charles Mingus is not any more attractive than many, many other non-musical careers out there... but the Rollins job really didn't sound too attractive financially, also compared to other music jobs he had... I guess he had this expectation that playing with Sonny Rollins was the big time, which it was in some ways, but not in others

Fair enough ....

[JSngry]

There's road bands. These are quite often not recording bands.

And then there's rehearsal bands, which are neither.

And then there's gig bands, which is a world apart from any of that.

Economics are a factor, but not just for a leader. There are plenty of sidepeoples who can make more staying in town than they can from doing road gigs. And travel...

If appearances are to be believed, Sonny kept a fairly stable core/corps of road players and Clifton Anderson kept everything right with them. The wild card, until the end, was the drum chair. And that didn't begin in the 70s!

On records, though, Jack DeJohnette was used more than you might think, and the few records with Tony Williams benefit greatly from his presence.

 

[Peter Friedman]

It does strike me as interesting that (as an example) Cedar Walton had excellent sidemen throughout has very long career.  If the issue is/was money, how could Cedar do it, while that was not the case for Sonny Rollins?

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

It does strike me as interesting that (as an example) Cedar Walton had excellent sidemen throughout has very long career.  If the issue is/was money, how could Cedar do it, while that was not the case for Sonny Rollins?

Volume, volume, volume. Buttloads of volume. You can do 100 $5 gigs or 1 $500 gig. Pick one. For the rest of your able life.

Trio or quartet.

That's like asking why everybody can't sell as cheaply as WalMart. Two totally different business models.

Sonny Rollins is one of the very few jazz musicians who have managed to have a successful professional life on their own terms. I'm sure that Lucille was an asset in that, and more power to the both of them. I don't (yet) see him having to beg for money for medical bills and such. Not to fault those who do, just saying that plans are good, good plans are better, and good plans that work are the best of all.

.