Jewish jazz musicians

[catesta]

hey, LP, here's Dizzy Gillespie on a white JEWISH saxohonist, Dave Schildkraut:

"Dave was the only alto player to capture the rhythmic essence of Bird."

Dizzy also mentioned that he called Dave on several occasions for recording sessions.

no great Jewish players? (well, what did Dizzy know?)

Allen, don't worry, l p will have a comeback for that.

Dizzy must have made those comments to make the whites happy, get a new gig, or make a little extra cash. Or, he may have just been delirious.

If I remeber correctly, Jaco Pastorius was the only white dude in jazz that ever made the cut in l p's ears. He likey Jaco.

[l p]

Trolling (so to speak) back through lp's posting history to see where he might be coming from, I found this gem about Joe Segal of the Jazz Showcase, whom lp had called a "bastard" for not putting out on commercial recordings more of the material he had taped at the club over the years. This used of "bastard" led someone (I think it was Sal) to reply that Segal could more accurately be characterized as grouchy -- to which lp replied: "it's all about money with these people. that's why he's a 'bastard.'"

Ah, yes -- "these people."

Also if Feather is "just a piece of shit who HAPPENED to be Jewish [my emphasis]," how, again, was he "a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world"? Go ahead, lp, take your dog out for a walk but don't then insist that it's a pussy cat.

in that thread, "these people" meant record companies, night club owners, etc.

you no make sense. grasping at straws.

Also if Feather is "just a piece of shit who HAPPENED to be Jewish [my emphasis]," how, again, was he "a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world"? Go ahead, lp, take your dog out for a walk but don't then insist that it's a pussy cat.

<<<

because he did a lot of nasty things to people (read: musicians). and he's still considered a decent guy by most. those who don't know any better.

[AllenLowe]

hey Lp - I think we met a few years ago - you were the guy in the wheel chair trying to prevent his arm from shooting up into that Nazi salute - damn, I knew you looked familiar -

[AllenLowe]

Actually, we might say that LP is "a huge ugly blotch" on the organissimo forum -

[l p]

hey, LP, here's Dizzy Gillespie on a white JEWISH saxohonist, Dave Schildkraut:

"Dave was the only alto player to capture the rhythmic essence of Bird."

Dizzy also mentioned that he called Dave on several occasions for recording sessions.

no great Jewish players? (well, what did Dizzy know?)

Allen, don't worry, l p will have a comeback for that.

Dizzy must have made those comments to make the whites happy, get a new gig, or make a little extra cash. Or, he may have just been delirious.

If I remeber correctly, Jaco Pastorius was the only white dude in jazz that ever made the cut in l p's ears. He likey Jaco.

casesta is a repeater pencil, but he's got it right. and he got it right when he said the same thing about 2 weeks ago.

all the stuff that i'm saying has been said by others before. in books and in interviews.

and as an aside, i'd love to take credit for this quote, but i can't:

>It's always fascinating to see how JSngry can

>post hundreds of words that contain absolutely no information.

[Christiern]

And to think that it was only yesterday, on a warm, sunny NYC afternoon, that I assured Jim (B3-er) and his wife that the board was running smoothly in their absence, without name-calling, etc. Guess "lp" proved me wrong!

[l p]

Actually, we might say that LP is "a huge ugly blotch" on the organissimo forum -

allen, buddy, i thought we were pals?

[l p]

hey, LP, here's Dizzy Gillespie on a white JEWISH saxohonist, Dave Schildkraut:

"Dave was the only alto player to capture the rhythmic essence of Bird."

Dizzy also mentioned that he called Dave on several occasions for recording sessions.

no great Jewish players? (well, what did Dizzy know?)

wan't that said about stitt, mclean, etc?

people say a lot of things that they don't mean.

[ghost of miles]

Can we trade l p to Jazz Corner for a poster-to-be-named-later?

I don't understand the bitterness and the attacks that you seem compelled to add to your posts. I mean, why throw in that gratuitous remark about Jsngry? (And I'm sure that I'm not the only one around here who finds Jim's posts consistently illuminating... if you're looking for a discography, get one on CD-Rom!) Why dog Chris A. like you do? Even if you posit controversial viewpoints, posters around here will generally respond with tact... why supplement them with these nasty asides?

Edited February 16, 2005 by ghost of miles

[catesta]

all the stuff that i'm saying has been said by others before. in books and in interviews.

and as an aside, i'd love to take credit for this quote, but i can't:

>It's always fascinating to see how JSngry can

>post hundreds of words that contain absolutely no information.

So, no original thoughts of your own?

[Larry Kart]

OK, lp -- one more time. Leonard Feather "did a lot of nasty things to people (read: musicians) etc." Agreed. But how do we get from there to "the Jewish race"?

BTW, if you think Feather is "still considered a decent guy by most," I think you need to do your homework. I'd say that at least half the people who have ever heard of Feather are well aware of the more unsavory sides of his behavior.

[catesta]

hey, LP, here's Dizzy Gillespie on a white JEWISH saxohonist, Dave Schildkraut:

"Dave was the only alto player to capture the rhythmic essence of Bird."

Dizzy also mentioned that he called Dave on several occasions for recording sessions.

no great Jewish players? (well, what did Dizzy know?)

wan't that said about stitt, mclean, etc?

people say a lot of things that they don't mean.

Great point l p.

You said this....

people say a lot of things that they don't mean.

after saying this....

all the stuff that i'm saying has been said by others before. in books and in interviews

[JSngry]

and as an aside, i'd love to take credit for this quote, but i can't:

>It's always fascinating to see how JSngry can

>post hundreds of words that contain absolutely no information.

Hell, I'D love to take credit for that quote!

[jlhoots]

This thread has taken a dissapointing (to say the least) turn since I looked at it a few days ago. Who is this guy(lp)??

[ghost of miles]

and as an aside, i'd love to take credit for this quote, but i can't:

>It's always fascinating to see how JSngry can

>post hundreds of words that contain absolutely no information.

Hell, I'D love to take credit for that quote!

You are a gracious man, Senor Sangrey.

[AllenLowe]

actually, LP, Dizzy said that to ME. And he CALLED Davey at home, personally, to ask Davey to record with him, on several occasions (Davey turned him down, but that's another story) - so white and/or Jewish does not eliminate people from having jazz talent or even from being best in class - so whaddaya think? Dizzy was just Uncle Tommin with me? Also, interesting quote from Bird, about Schildkraut, passed to me via Bill Triglia: "We were sitting in the car one night and Bird said something to me, indicated that Dave was going to have some problems, great as he was, beause he was a white guy and he would catch all kinds of trouble for being the best sax player around."

Now we all know what an Uncle Tommin' white pleaser that Charlie Parker was -

[Big Al]

i don't know anything about alfred lion's business tactics/reputation among musicians.

[ghost of miles]

i don't know anything about alfred lion's business tactics/reputation among musicians.

Well, he weren't no bastard... unless you mean a Dusty Groove-type bastard!

[Jazzmoose]

On the positive side, I now have a handy reference whenever I want to look up the words to that cool Adam Sandler song. On the other hand...

I'll give the thread a C+.

[marcello]

To add my two cents about Birks; he once said to me that, to paraphrase, that Jews, Italians and Putero Ricans can really play the music. That they had a lot of Natural Soul.

I think he was just trying to add the whole human race as Soul Brothers! He was a Bahai, you know!

By the way, does everyone here really enjoy this diarrhea of the mouth going on here?

Edited February 16, 2005 by marcello

[catesta]

To add my two cents about Birks; he once said to me that, to paraphrase, that Jess, Italians and Putero Ricans can really play the music. That they had a lot of Natural Soul.

I think he was just trying to add the whole human race as Soul Brothers! He was a Bahai, you know!

By the way, does everyone here really enjoy this diarrhea of the mouth going on here?

I never enjoy the times l p feels it necessary to talk his smack.

[alankin]

That reminds me, isn't it almost time for National Brotherhood Week? (The 40th anniversary is on Monday.)

It's so hard not to feed the troll.

Edited February 19, 2005 by alankin

[piousterica]

Sammy Davis, Jr.

Doesn't count - as I believe we are looking at ethnic influence.

Hello, Fran,

Interesting comment; and this is an interesting thread. A bit scary, really, IMO, but interesting. Had someone started a thread entitled, "Non-Jewish Jazz Musicians" I'm sure lots of folks would be screaming anti-Semitism instead of contributing to it. But that's what is great about Freedom of Ideas and Speech; or at least in Internet-communication theory.

A lot of "Jews," just to give you some historical perspective, are not "ethnically" influenced, as you seem to think is of such relative importance.

In Central and Eastern Europe, many traders and merchants took on the Jewish faith, so that they could trade with both (collectively) the Christians and the Muslims. In this way, they would not offend either trading-party and could exploit trade to their greatest investment advantage.

Over time, such people became "Jews" but were not of "ethnic" Jewish descent.

So... Just because a fellow by the name of Stan Getz is of Ukrainian-Jewish origins, unless one does extensive Haplogroup X-DNA testing, really, there is no way to determine if he is as "ethnic" as you would like to believe.

What really defines "ethnicity" in regards to Jews?

Most American "Jews" are Ashkenazi Jews who have little consanguineous ties to ancient Israel. In reality, most "converted" to this religious-belief system for their personal advantage. Those with true "ethnic influence," as you like to put it; can range from 1% to about 30% of their bloodline. The majority of their genetics is of European descent with very little "ethnicity" of the Jewish bloodline.

If Sammy chose to become Jewish, then I respect that. Being "Jewish" is beautiful, regardless if you have its "ethnicity" or not.

Jazz is important because it can be played and enjoyed by all peoples in any culture, "ethnicity," or sex in life...

That is why it is the greatest and most diverse music in the world.

Please, do not let "ethnicity" determine who is worthy and who is not worthy.

And, yes, I am to believe that I am a MOT (Jewish descent), of which I am very proud; but I do not let it define who I am nor let it define how to judge other peoples. Sammy, ethnically or not, is part of my family.

Thank you for the opportunity to share my POV.

GLTY.

[Roundsound]

Your're proud of not being Jewish or are you proud of your heritage?

Needless to say there is a large Jewish contingent playing high quality jazz. Being Jewish, I am proud of that

[Teasing the Korean]

Did anyone mention Izzy Goldberg? One of the great bebop pioneers.