Jewish jazz musicians

[AllenLowe]

what? no singers named Schiksa?

[cannonball-addict]

Sein dreidt in de kop.

[neveronfriday]

Haven't managed to read all the names yet, but have we had Kenny G yet?

We should not forget him.

Not here.

Not on this board.

[l p]

can't think of any good jewish jazz musicians. there is one jewish rock musician that i like - lou reed. his 1978 shows ('take no prisoners' cd) are great.

[garthsj]

can't think of any good jewish jazz musicians. there is one jewish rock musician that i like - lou reed. his 1978 shows ('take no prisoners' cd) are great.

Hmmmmmmmm... if you can't think of any, well there are many "good" Jewish jazz musicians listed in this thread ....

Edited February 15, 2005 by garthsj

[l p]

can't think of any good jewish jazz musicians. there is one jewish rock musician that i like - lou reed. his 1978 shows ('take no prisoners' cd) are great.

Hmmmmmmmm... if you can't think of any, well there are many "good" Jewish jazz musicians listed in this thread ....

there aren't any good (let alone great) jewish jazz musicians. they (we) are better at the business, and collecting end of the music business.

unfortunately, a lot of the white men who financially ripped off black jazz musicians were jewish.

keep the rolling eyes thing going. you'll look swell.

benny goodman? stan getz? f.t.s.

[ghost of miles]

Yes, those Jewish people sure are great with money, aren't they?

Pardon my rolling eyes, but that's one of the most offensive comments I've ever seen posted here--whether you're Jewish or not. If you don't think there are any worthwhile Jewish musicians, fine, that's your opinion, etc. But to then go and promulgate one of the worst stereotypes that have been visited upon Jews...

[John B]

Yes, those Jewish people sure are great with money, aren't they?

Pardon my rolling eyes, but that's one of the most offensive comments I've ever seen posted here--whether you're Jewish or not. If you don't think there are any worthwhile Jewish musicians, fine, that's your opinion, etc. But to then go and promulgate one of the worst stereotypes that have been visited upon Jews...

I agree 100% with g.o.m.

That post is offensive b.s.

[l p]

i didn't say 'great with money'. i would say better with money.

anyway, history shows that jews, on the average, are more succesful in business than gentiles. i doubt that i'm the first to ever say this.

a large amount of record company owners, managers, club owners, etc. are/were jewish.

and let's not forget leonard feather, what a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world. but there are probably even better examples.

benny goodman didn't want charlie christian to play with lester, etal at the spirituals to swing concert. wanted to keep charlie all to himself.

many other examples.

check out frank kofsky's books (and he's jewish). you can skip the communist stuff.

[Larry Kart]

lp -- Enlighten me on how Leonard Feather was " a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world." Yes, Leonard was a self-promoting jerk in many respects, but how does one's feelings about that behavior transfer to the "race"? Are you saying that Feather's behavior springs from and relates specifically to his Jewishness? Sticking with promoter/record biz types, Alfred Lion is generally regraded as a man of sterling reputation and high achievement. If you agree (perhaps you don't), does Lion being the man he was amount to a huge lovely bouquet to "the Jewish race"? If you agree, staying in this realm, that John Hammond was somewhat equivocal figure in many respects, is Hammond then "a huge ugly blotch" on White Anglo-Saxon Protestants?

[AllenLowe]

Hey, l p - many African Americans ripped off people in the record business - VeeJay Records or Don Robey - does that indicate some kind of genetic condition? Don't forget the Irish, the Roman Catholics, the Poles, the Russians, the Latinos - there's been plenty of ripoff to go around, funny that you only notice the Jews - how many Jews are in the Bush adminstration, the biggest rippoff going now? What's your background? Racist, anti-semitic, genocidal, white, yelloe, brown? C'mon, give us the truth oh member of the Aryan nation and dedicated anti-communist -

Edited February 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Guest akanalog]

off topic sort of, but it always disappointed me that it was a jew who ripped off the grateful dead (mickey hart's dad-abe hart, i think was his name-this is why mickey left the band in 1971...i am sure many wish he had stayed away). anyway, thanks to mr. hart for promoting bad stereotypes about jews among the hippie set.

[Guest akanalog]

also to this troll-ish lp person, i would agree that there is basically no one on this list who i really enjoy listening to right now...HOWEVER, as subjective as the term "good" is, to say none of these people were "good" jazz musicians is idiotic and inciteful. there are many innovators among this group.

did anyone mention dave izenzon in here, by the way? i would guess he is jewish...

[Guest akanalog]

speaking of frank kofsky, what was his problem? in the one book by him i read, i couldn't help but notice he took every chance he could to rip on white musicians like brubeck and gets-refusing to give them their deserved credit for anything positive.

[Guest akanalog]

one more thought-do people feel zorn's embrace of his jewish heritage is legit? the penguin guide seemed to call it into question, but i have not really been able to come to a clear decision. i don't like it just on the fact i don't know if i want zorn to be the dominant leader in propogating my ethnicity (i am jewish) musically.

[Christiern]

speaking of frank kofsky, what was his problem? in the one book by him i read, i couldn't help but notice he took every chance he could to rip on white musicians like brubeck and gets-refusing to give them their deserved credit for anything positive.

• I never figured out what Kofsky's problem was, but he had a huge one (problem, that is ) Somewhere in one of my dust-gathering piles of "keepers" is a series of truly venomous postcards he sent me--all because I had reviewed a John Handy trio album and admitted in the review that the bass player (a local SF guy) was a new name to me. This produced an incredible series of letters and cards urging that Stereo Review drop me. The more we ignored Kofsky, the more he foamed at the mouth until he finally sent me a death threat. By that time, I had, admittedly, sent a letter to his boss at UCLA, questioning the wisdom of having such a hateful madman teach young people. I included a couple of choice Kofsky cards.
  
  One thing Kofsky wrote in his text tirades was that my Bessie Smith biography was a fabrication from beginning to end. Imagine my surprise, several years later, when I came across his web site and saw that he had aimed his venom at John Hammond, using statements from my book to support his accusations. I dropped him a note only to discover that he had, himself, dropped--dead.
  

Kofsky's deranged hatred seems to live on in a cyber trolling entity that calls itself "lp."

[l p]

Kofsky's deranged hatred seems to live on in a cyber trolling entity that calls itself "lp."

you better look in the mirror.

every other post from you is bitching about writers. is it because they are better/more successful than you are. you wrote one book? not a bad one, but i've read many better biographies.

[l p]

speaking of frank kofsky, what was his problem? in the one book by him i read, i couldn't help but notice he took every chance he could to rip on white musicians like brubeck and gets-refusing to give them their deserved credit for anything positive.

that's because kofsky is one of the few whites who tells it like it is, no matter the consequences. and probably has more taste in music than the average joe (or chris for that matter).

[l p]

lp -- Enlighten me on how Leonard Feather was " a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world." Yes, Leonard was a self-promoting jerk in many respects, but how does one's feelings about that behavior transfer to the "race"?

Are you saying that Feather's behavior springs from and relates specifically to his Jewishness?

>>>

no. he was just a piece of shit who happened to be jewish. but he's a great example of a person who went through a lot of trouble to take advantage of people whenever possible. there is an old related thread on bluenote in google groups.

Sticking with promoter/record biz types, Alfred Lion is generally regraded as a man of sterling reputation and high achievement. If you agree (perhaps you don't), does Lion being the man he was amount to a huge lovely bouquet to "the Jewish race"?

>>>>

i don't know anything about alfred lion's business tactics/reputation among musicians.

If you agree, staying in this realm, that John Hammond was somewhat equivocal figure in many respects, is Hammond then "a huge ugly blotch" on White Anglo-Saxon Protestants?

>>>

hammond was a piece of shit too. this is a man who got billie holiday fired from the basie band because she refused to sing all blues songs. a lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about john hammond. you need to read more books. or ask chris albertson. he'll bitch about anybody you name. even if he has to make shit up.

[l p]

Hey, l p - many African Americans ripped off people in the record business - VeeJay Records or Don Robey - does that indicate some kind of genetic condition? Don't forget the Irish, the Roman Catholics, the Poles, the Russians, the Latinos - there's been plenty of ripoff to go around, funny that you only notice the Jews - how many Jews are in the Bush adminstration, the biggest rippoff going now? What's your background? Racist, anti-semitic, genocidal, white, yelloe, brown? C'mon, give us the truth oh member of the Aryan nation and dedicated anti-communist -

i'll quote chuck nessa, and ask you to read the whole thread. otherwise you're assuming.

[ghost of miles]

I've read Kofsky and have time for some of his points... As someone who was born right around the time he interviewed Coltrane, I can offer only a perspective based in historical reading, whereas Chris, Larry, Allen, and others here who lived through the era can speak to it much better than I can. His writing tended to overheat and get in the way of the very causes he was trying to promote, but it was a time of excesses--some of them, perhaps, necessary as historical correctives.

Nobody's going to dispute that white businessmen exploited black musicians, or that white critics had too much power and influence--but when you boil this down to horrendously reductive statements like, "There are no good or great Jewish jazz musicians," and then follow it up with "They were better at handling the business end," which plays into a terrible stereotype of Jews (remember Spike Lee's MO' BETTER BLUES and the two club-owners?), then I think you've bought into a very simplistic, and, yes, racist, representation of jazz history.

[AllenLowe]

hey, LP, here's Dizzy Gillespie on a white JEWISH saxohonist, Dave Schildkraut:

"Dave was the only alto player to capture the rhythmic essence of Bird."

Dizzy also mentioned that he called Dave on several occasions for recording sessions.

no great Jewish players? (well, what did Dizzy know?)

Edited February 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Trolling (so to speak) back through lp's posting history to see where he might be coming from, I found this gem about Joe Segal of the Jazz Showcase, whom lp had called a "bastard" for not putting out on commercial recordings more of the material he had taped at the club over the years. This used of "bastard" led someone (I think it was Sal) to reply that Segal could more accurately be characterized as grouchy -- to which lp replied: "it's all about money with these people. that's why he's a 'bastard.'"

Ah, yes -- "these people."

Also if Feather is "just a piece of shit who HAPPENED to be Jewish [my emphasis]," how, again, was he "a huge ugly blotch on the jewish race in the jazz world"? Go ahead, lp, take your dog out for a walk but don't then insist that it's a pussy cat.

[AllenLowe]

well, as Lenny Bruce said, we all have to get get together - Jewis, gentiles, whites, blacks, Scandanavians, Italians, French, Germans - we all have to get together - and beat up the Greeks -

or mayble, in this case, LP -

Edited February 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[rockefeller center]

- and beat up the Greeks -

And all Millers.