Viva Prog Rock

[Green Dolphin]

What's freeway rock?

AOR!But Journey were doing it better at the time.!

[A Lark Ascending]

What is it about Relayer you don't care for, Bev? 

I first heard it along with some friends on a radio broadcast the week it came out. It was around 10.00 one Friday night (I was at university at the time) and we stayed in to hear it. I just recall all of us reacting 'This is crap!'

I couldn't quite believe it was so bad and so bought a copy anyway and never warmed to it. It seemed to be all flash and no tunes. And I'm afraid that was what appealed to me about yes - they had an almost Beatlesque gift for melody. Relayer sounded as grey as the cover.

I bought 'Going for the One' a couple of years later and although there were a few tunes there I found it very 'glued together'. Previously the different segments of their songs seemed to flow together. They seemed to lose that.

I think my disinterest was also tied in with Wakeman who always struck me as completely characterless - I much preferred Tony Kaye (this may have something to do with the appearance of synths around the time of Wakeman - they're pretty industrial revolution on 'The Yes Album' but with each successive album they became more and more anonymous).

*************

I'm have a pretty similar reaction to Genesis. I love Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot - great songs and that marvellous textural breadth - electric, acoustic 12 string, flute, mellotron etc. I was disappointed by 'Selling England...' when it came out. The songs were less careful, more rambling. And, once again, the anonymous synth rears its ugly head! 'The Lamb...' I did like - that was a real left turn for Genesis. It all sounds rather muddy but very distinctive with good tunes (and the synth sounds woozy, not synthetic at all). I did my university finals to 'Trick of the Tale' and really liked it's poppy tunefulness. 'Wind and Wuthering' attracted me less - again, less care over the tunes and ideas being regurgitated. After that I lost interest although I did enjoy 'Duke' (nice tunes) and 'I Can't Dance.'

The real problem I always found with Genesis was their lack of an improvising soloist. Banks and Hackett were good players but played arrangements. I saw the Gabriel-era Genesis on the Foxtrot tour and although it was great fun everything was identical to the records; live recordings suggest the same. Banks also does that thing that drives me nuts in many prog-rock bands of playing a phrase and then repeating it; then another phrase and repeating it.

At the end of the day I retain great affection for these bands' music up to the mid-70s but cannot summon up much interest beyond. This may be purely a case of nostalgia. I suspect it's partly a result of disliking synths and the sort of loud, stadium production that took over in the late 70s. And also a consequence of discovering jazz, folk and classical music around 1975, where things were done much more subtly.

As I said before I think the music of many of the bands of the early 70s has suffered unfair press because of what it became. In the early 70s there was a real sense of musicians challenging boundaries, pushing the limits of what was pop or rock music. Perhaps their ambitions ultimately outstripped their musical abilities or imaginations. Too much attention went into the 'show' and the special effects, not enough into the music. And thus what had begun as a genuine attempt to create adventurous music set itself up to be written off as pretentious and bombastic by the punks.

That, at least, is the view of someone who came to this sort of music in the early 70s. An opportunity lost.

[Green Dolphin]

The one thing I liked about Relayer was the abscence of Wakeman,Moraz was a far more interesting player-it's their most jazz-rock album to my ears.I agree that Wakeman was the weakest link in the band,a pretty tasteless character in the main(didn't he blow all his money on Rollers?-and those solo albums of his...unlistenable).Crimson also went jazz rock around the same time "Lark's Tongue.." and "Starless.." are my two favourites by a long stretch...but I always felt Fripp a bit faddish-prog-rock in the early 70's,jazz-rock in the mid then a Talking Heads fixation with the first comeback band with Belew(a former Heads sideman).Great music for all that but after that I must admit I find the stuff a bit soulless-must try and get to hear the new one tho',seems like a few people rate it here.

Will we're on the subject roughly any old Rush fans out there?

[A Lark Ascending]

I disliked the early 80s KC when I first heard it. Bought Discipline and Beat and sold them a couple of years later and basically forgot about them. But in the late 90s I heard Thrak and immediately warmed to it, then got a couple of the 90s live albums which I also enjoyed, including the songs from the 80s and so that sent me back to the early 80s again. This time I really enjoyed the music.

I'm not sure what had happened in my head but what had once sounded dull came right to life.

I think expectations were part of it. By compaison with 70s KC the 80s band seemed so reined in and too close to the New Wave bands of the time. I didn't get it and was constantly frustrated by Fripp's refusal to let rip with his wonderful guitar style! Whatever I've listened to since seems to have altered my expectations and I now enjoy Discipline etc.

[Green Dolphin]

Discipline is the pick of the 80's sets for me(remeMber being blown away by Frame By Frame on the OGWT)-Hopefully I can get back to Thrak et al at some stage(sometimes music "takes time" and often rewards better as such))but dare I say it the recent stuff is a bit "heavy" for me.

[J Larsen]

Thiss thread inspired me to borrow a copy of Genesis "Foxtrot", depsite my extreme anti-Phil Collins and anti-Peter Gabriel stance (a result of their 80s solo material). I was fairly impressed. It certainly has about a million times more "artistic value" (for lack of a better term) than anything I ever expected to hear from a Phil Collins project. For me it was like listening to a solid bop set from the 70s and later learning that one of the sax players was Kenny G. It was a bit stunning and made me feel slightly dirty.

[Jim Alfredson]

Foxtrot is really a great album. The Lamb is my favorite. If it sounds muddy, Bev, you need to get the remaster. They really did a good job on that one. Even the original vinyl is muddy sounding and has a low level 60 cycle hum in it. The remaster from the mid-90s is super clean and crisp.

The comment about Genesis being split into Hackett/post-Hackett is interesting. I don't think it had much to do with him, though. Honestly, I think what happened is that they started experimenting with pop-ier songs starting with W&W. They continued the trend on ATTWT. Then Phil put his solo record out and it exploded and sold more copies than any Genesis record ever had. I think they all said, "Hey... let's do that." And then there was Abacab.

And concerning the Peter Gabriel "talk-sing" comment... I think Gabriel has an infinitely more interesting voice than Phil. Just the timbre of his voice is completely unique. He does do a bit of "talking" in the old Genesis records, but that's due, I think, to the fact that he's doing characters. It's like a narrative.

[Aggie87]

I wish I had been into Yes when Tales & Relayer first came out (got into Yes music in 1979 or so, at age 14). I can imagine the anticipation of hearing Moraz in Wakeman's place. (or Wakeman replacing Kaye earlier, for that matter). I still think Gates compares to anything off of Tales, though, and is a powerful epic.

And I also think "Awaken" off of GFTO is quite impressive as well, and I don't hear it as a "cobbled together" or disjointed piece. I'm expecting it will get played next Friday night when they play Stuttgart.

I can see if synths in general turned you off during this period, that you might have a problem with Wakeman over Kaye though. I thought Kaye was a great Hammond player, and his creative peak was on "The Yes Album". I'm not sure Yes would've produced Fragile, CTTE, or the subsequent albums with Kaye still in the fold. Or at the very least they sure wouldn't have sounded like they do. It also seems that after Kaye rejoined the band in the '80s, that most of the keyboard work was done by Trevor Rabin. I saw them a couple of times with that lineup, and Kaye didn't add much live, to either the newer material or the 70s stuff. In fact Talk is probably more of a Rabin solo album, with Anderson singing, than a true Yes album.

[Aggie87]

Thiss thread inspired me to borrow a copy of Genesis "Foxtrot", depsite my extreme anti-Phil Collins and anti-Peter Gabriel stance (a result of their 80s solo material). I was fairly impressed. It certainly has about a million times more "artistic value" (for lack of a better term) than anything I ever expected to hear from a Phil Collins project. For me it was like listening to a solid bop set from the 70s and later learning that one of the sax players was Kenny G. It was a bit stunning and made me feel slightly dirty.

I think you'd be impressed with any of the Gabriel led albums, beginning with Nursery Crime up through Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Also check out the two mentioned above with Collins, but before Hackett left. I think you would be pleasantly surprised at any of them.

Also, Gabriel's solo stuff is well worth exploring. It's all been recently released in remastered form. If you are only judging it from "Sledgehammer" and "In Your Eyes" (both of which were overplayed to death), you're missing out on alot of good music. The first four albums are great, and the remaster of Us is fantastic! The soundtrack work he's done is also very interesting, and not as well known as his rock material, so that might be up your alley as well.

[A Lark Ascending]

Aggie87,

I'm not trying to make any definitive statement about these bands. I think our reaction to music is far more subjective than the tendency of criticism to divide things into good and bad albums or great and also-ran musicians lets on.

Yes just sounded so distinctive to my ears in the early 70s; after 74 they lost what I really liked. But that is as likely to be a consequence of my own changing tastes at the time as to anything in the music.

I can fully understand how the later music migt be appealing to a later listener or one who latched on at the same time as me but whose other listening was so different.

I've frequently read reviews claiming that Yes lost it after their first album! And I can see why someone taken by the poppy appeal of that album might find the more grandiose approach of later albums rather unattractive.

The nice thing for me is that I can still get lots of pleasure from those early records 30 years later.

B3-er,

I've not heard the CD version of 'Lamb.' I wasn't meaning 'muddy' as a criticism. I quite liked that - the music itself was darker than the earlier Genesis. They certainly reverted to bright and sparkly after 'Lamb'!

[Aggie87]

I'd like to take a second and make a recommendation on a contemporary "prog" group, Porcupine Tree. If you like prog, and want to hear something that's in that vein, but isn't exactly a derivative of the "noodly" 70's stuff, check them out.

Porcupine Tree started out as a one man band, Steve Wilson back in the early 90's. Gradually turned into a real band, as they went from a small indie label to a larger one, and now finally on Atlantic. The music has evolved significantly as well. The early albums were very interesting and promising, but not really fleshed out. There are some moments where they clearly sound like Pink Floyd in style (best example is the album "Sky Moves Sideways" from 1995). There are some wonderful vocal harmonies, as well as some intricate instrumentals.

Their newest album is from last year, and is called "In Absentia". This one is their heaviest (and darkest) album, and may be similar in spirit to music like Tool. Very interesting album.

It's not my favorite though. That would be "Lightbulb Sun" from 2000. For me this is their peak, and is the single best album to try them out.

[Aggie87]

I saw Yes in concert on Friday night, with Wakeman back in the fold. They put on a great show, and seemed to have a great deal of rock-n-roll energy for guys who have to be getting up near 60. The concert was moved from an open-air stage to an indoor hall nearby for some reason, but I think that actually helped visually, since it's currently staying light here until almost 10:30 pm.

The setlist was:

Firebird Suite intro

Siberian Khatru

Magnification/Don't Kill The Whale

In The Presence Of

We Have Heaven

South Side Of The Sky

And You And I

Howe solo: In The Course Of The Day / To Be Over

Anderson solo: Show Me

Wakeman solo: Journey to the Center of Catherine Parr, or something like that

Heart Of The Sunrise

Long Distance Runaround

Squire/White duet: Whitefish/Tempus Fugit/Silent Wings of Freedom

Awaken

Roundabout

Yours Is No Disgrace

Interesting for me was to see how Wakeman played "Magnification" and "In the Presence Of", which weren't written with keyboard in mind, but orchestrally. I thought he accounted for himself nicely, and didn't overkill anything. And reviewing the setlist today, it's interesting to note that they played almost all of Fragile. I would've enjoyed hearing something from Topographic, or perhaps "Close to the Edge", but it would be hard to cut any of the setlist to make room. The concert lasted about 2.5 hours. Overall, I'd give it a solid "B" grade, losing out to the symphonic tour last year, which earned a solid "A" from me.

[Aggie87]

Good news on the Yes remaster front - due out on August 26th, the Rhino Remasters for:

Close to the Edge, with extras:

America (Single Version) [4:03]

Total Mass Retain (Single Version) [3:20]

And You and I (Alternate Version) [10:21] [Previously Unissued]

Siberia (Studio Run-Through of “Siberian Khatru”) [9:19] [Previously Unissued

Tales from Topographic Oceans, with:

Dance of the Dawn (Studio Run-Through) [23:10] [Previously Unissued]

Giants under the Sun (Studio Run-Through) [17:34] [Previously Unissued]

Relayer, with:

Soon (Single Edit) [4:06]

Sound Chaser (Single Edit) [3:07]

Gates of Delirium (Studio Run-Through) [21:21] [Previously Unissued]

Going for the One, with:

Montreux's Theme [2:34]

Vevey (Revisited)[4:43]

Amazing Grace [2:31]

Going for the One (Rehearsal) [5:00]

Parallels (Rehearsal) [6:33]

Turn of the Century (Rehearsal) [7:00]

Eastern Numbers (Early Version of "Awaken") [12:35]

[Parkertown]

Crap! That makes them almost irresistable!

[Aggie87]

I caught King Crimson in Stuttgart last night - FANTASTIC show! Highly recommended for anyone thinking about them, if they're coming to your area.

The concert began with Fripp coming out solo, without so much as an acknowledgement of the audience, and began playing some ambient-style soundscapes. This lasted about 15 minutes, at which point he simply got up and left the stage, with the music continuing. A while later the band came out and hit us with some very powerful music. There were also some moments of very light, beautiful music, but the majority of it was heavier, as has been the case with their past few albums.

They played alot from "The Power to Believe", and it came across wonderfully. The acoustics in the hall were great, which according to Pat Mastelotto after the show haven't been so good in other venues (notably Warsaw). And the performance lived up to my expectations as well. Adrian Belew is a great frontman for this group, and did some interesting things vocally (sort of a proggy "Peter Frampton talk box" a few times) as well as with his guitar. Fripp didn't face the audience at all, but sat on a stool sideways, facing the rest of the band. I don't think I even saw him nod his head or tap his toe or anything. And this was my first time to see a "Warr guitar" played, by Trey Gunn. He played the bass parts, but also quite a bit more - he's quite a musician! I'll post a setlist shortly.

Got to meet Belew, Gunn, & Mastelotto afterwards, all of whom were very personable and seemed to enjoy chatting/signing autographs for people. Fripp never came out, though the road manager said he was already gone and wouldn't sign anyway. They're heading to Brussels next, so Claude if you're out there, check it out!

Edit: Here's the setlist:

Soundscape I

Soundscape II

The Power To Believe I

Level Five

ProzaKc Blues

The ConstrukCtion Of Light

Facts of Life

EleKtriK

The Power To Believe II

Dinosaur

One Time

Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With

Dangerous Curves

Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part IV/Coda

- Encore I -

Deception of the Thrush

Elephant Talk

- Encore II -

Red

Edited July 14, 2003 by Aggie87

[Aggie87]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the Yes website:

"Talks for a joint tour next year are underway between the camps for Yes and the Dead (formerly known as the Other Ones, and before that the Grateful Dead). Nothing is confirmed and there are no additional details at this time."

I'm not sure what to think about this combination. Anyone else think this is a good/bad idea?

[A Lark Ascending]

I stand corrected!

Bought a copy of 'Magnification' to take on holiday and played it on several long drives. What a glorious record! The melodies and key changes are just like the old days and the arrangements excellent. Lyrics as silly as ever but never mind

Maybe this is the answer. No keyboard player! No synth washes or squiggles!

Very enjoyable.

(Anderson was interviewed in The Guardian a few weeks back and sounds as daft as ever...have a look here for a laugh. It's worth it for his thoughts on baby ducks!:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/st...1008449,00.html

'The Idea is to Unravel the Onion' indeed!)

Edited August 20, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[Aggie87]

Bev - Glad to hear you are so impressed with Magnification! I really think it's about the best thing Yes has done since the "classic" era. Not sure whether that's due to the absence of a keyboardist or not, but I really like the different feel of this album, perhaps due to the presence of the orchestra.

I saw them on the Symphonic tour, and they did have a keyboard player in tow (Tom Brislin) who was actually a pretty good player, but he didn't have all that much to add.

I also saw Yes in June with Wakeman back in the fold (reviewed the show earlier in this thread), and looking back on the show, I'm not sure he's that "forward thinking" anymore. He played his parts and did alright with them, but seemed to treat the gig as a job, the more I reflect on it. I think the tour has been successful mainly due to his presence again, because most people want to see the "classic" lineup, playing the old material.

But as far as making new, interesting music, I'm not sure he'll have very much to add. I liked the four-piece lineup. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong.

Also, check out the "Keystudio" album. It's a midline reissue of the studio tracks from Keys to Ascention I & II, which were from 96/97. It's got Wakeman on there, but he's not too heavy handed. There are some very good moments on there as well. One criticism I hear of this one is that they may have been trying too hard to play in their 70's style, but I still enjoy it.

[A Lark Ascending]

I never felt Wakeman was more than an 'add on' to the original group. Yes, I think dropping the keyboard player could well be a way to keep the rejuvenated group fresh. Without keyboards to fill up the sound they've got to try harder with the writing. 'Magnification' shows they can still do it...I have some of those tunes whizzing round my head for days after playing the disc. Just like in the olden days!!!!

I'll give a listen to one or two of these more recent discs. I did by 'Open Your Eyes' when it came out and found it arid. What made me take the risk with 'Magnification' was reading lots of reviews that were equally disappointed with 'OYE.' It was nice to know if wasn't just me.

[Guest ariceffron]

THEY WERENT PLAYING RED WHEN THEY TOURED AMERICA IN MARCH. YOU ARE LUCKY.

[7/4]

THEY WERENT PLAYING RED WHEN THEY TOURED AMERICA IN MARCH.  YOU ARE LUCKY.

Crimson not playing Red?

Time has stopped!!!

B)

[robert h.]

It continues to amaze me how American audiences have such limited, conservatives tastes. This discussion, centering around bands like Yes, Genesis and a few others, is a case in point.

Yes, Genesis, ELP, the Moody Blues - those bands are AOR-prog, the Celine Dion's of prog rock, bands as subtle as a sledgehammer, formulaic and always headed to the grand bombastic gesture so loved by American audiences. In fairness, the Hackett-era Genesis were not that bad, and I agree with those who point out that Hackett absolutely defined Genesis - not Gabriel.

Limiting one's view of prog to those bands is not only wrongly defining what prog is, it misses the true innovators of prog and the essence of what prog was, and is - an underground British phenomena that still thrives today. In England, concerts today by Yes and the other "big" names are virtually ignored by local audiences, they are tourist attractions, akin to the long running theatre such as Lion King and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

Here's what prog is really about, the bands who define it:

Caravan, Camel, Egg, Cressida, Fruupp, Khan, T-2, Fantasy, Stackridge, Indian Summer, Van Der Graaf Generator, Family, Jonesy...

There's a subtle British charm, a whimsy, a sense of humor, an experimentaism, a lightness of touch - that all characterize true prog. Who would sing about a golf girl dressed in PVC except Caravan? Who had a three-mellotron front line attack other than Spring? Who defined living on the outside fringes - and directly demonstrates the link between prog and punk - other than Van Der Graaf?

Prog is still alive today, witness the outstanding new Camel CD (while dinosaurs like Yes are nothing but an oldies act), the new Soft Works CD, Allan Holdsworth's new live trio CD.

Prog melded with jazz too - while many North Americans credit the bombastic, and shallow, bands like Mahavishnu and RTF with jazz rock, it was bands like Soft Machine, Nucleus, Keith Tippett, and others who people like Miles were clearly listening to - and influenced by and on. On the vocal side, the David Clayton Thomas version of BS&T comes across like a Vegas act alongside their contemporary British brass=rock band If - who truly swung and rocked at the same time and are simply loads of fun.

Please, don't keep yourselves stuck on rewind. The true prog is out there and waiting for you to discover it.

[Guest ariceffron]

I'm sorry asshole but your analogy is twisted. Indeed, Yes, ELP, Genesis, etc had great popular successess in america but that doesnt make them any less musically gifted than the other groups you mention. In fact, i would argue that the bands you mention (w/ the excpetion of van der graaf) are not as good as the former mention artists, as far as being songwritiers. You are comparing the popular prog bands to the more obscure cantabury jazz-influecned school, who are good improvising musicans, but could not write songs like the great popular prog bands did. Its just a matter of what one is looking for, but you cannot say yes, elp and genesis are the celene dion of prog. that is a horrible, misguided analogy.

[Jazzdog]

I'm sorry asshole but your analogy is twisted. Indeed, Yes, ELP, Genesis, etc had great popular successess in america but that doesnt make them any less musically gifted than the other groups you mention. In fact, i would argue that the bands you mention (w/ the excpetion of van der graaf) are not as good as the former mention artists, as far as being songwritiers. You are comparing the popular prog bands to the more obscure cantabury jazz-influecned school, who are good improvising musicans, but could not write songs like the great popular prog bands did. Its just a matter of what one is looking for, but you cannot say yes, elp and genesis are the celene dion of prog. that is a horrible, misguided analogy.

I don't really think there is a need to call this guy an "asshole" it's just an opinion. You may not like it, but there is a ring of truth to it. Those three bands (I love them still...well Yes not as much as I used to, and ELP not at all...except Karn Evil 9) are the definitive of the overblown 70's rock Dinosaurs. I prefer Krimso over any of them these days. They are still innovative and interesting not to mention long lasting of all the Prog groups.

I count myself today as a bigger fan of bands like Can, Brand X, old PG, Beefheart, Roxy, Hammill/VDGG and Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Art Bears then any of the less esoteric 70's pop artists. Sorry I left out Tull, maybe many dont really consider them Prog as such, but I love them as well!!

[Guest ariceffron]

no dude he kind of is, beacuse people are always trashing yes and elp. what in the hell. most people wish they could be as innovative in rock music as yes and elp are. yes, they were "mainstream" but that has nothing to do with anything. before they were mainstream they were underground just like 'egg' or whatever. well actually not elp, but yes were.