Viva Prog Rock

[Kyo]

Can either of you recomend a disc or two of Opeth for a newbie? Many thanks.

Damnation is their "easy listening" album, no metal riffs or growls here. Very

untypical, but quite nice. Might be a good starting point if you're allergic

to the heavier stuff. Other than that, Blackwater Park is a classic for a

reason and their last album Watershed was one of their strongest so far.

[Guest Wallace]

Here's what prog is really about, the bands who define it:

Caravan, Camel, Egg, Cressida, Fruupp, Khan, T-2, Fantasy, Stackridge, Indian Summer, Van Der Graaf Generator, Family, Jonesy...

There's a subtle British charm, a whimsy, a sense of humor, an experimentaism, a lightness of touch - that all characterize true prog.

...............

Good post, Robert

I beg to differ with a lot of your points though.(Ive not included all.)

....

About the lines Ive parsed - probably half those bands you mention are in fact PROTO-prog, not prog proper.

Charm - most certainly. But about the whimsey and lightness of touch -there is actually not over-much of that in prog (of the period you detail.) Yes, ocassionally there is Lear/Carollian nonesense-type prog lyric (to give example, Gryphon "Flash In The Pantry",Stackridge "Snark",Yezda Urfa "My Doc Told Me I Had Doggie Head", Crimson "Catfood") but whimsey was really to the fore in the UK POPSIKE of late 60s, not prog.

Prog lyrics tend towards darkness/seriousness.Subjects of (dark)fantasy/mythology, social concerns,nature. Even something as silly-sounding as Genesis' "Willow Farm" has more sinister overtones on re-thought (and connected to the bigger picture of that particular epic.)

Sure Caravan is full of lightness, but Caravan were at the later point where prog melded into the more overt playfulness of Canterbury and one or two more subgenres.(I suppose Family has light elements but, admittedly contrary to most progheads pidgeonholing, Ive never really rated them Prog. They seem more Queen/Supertrampish to me.)

Out of curiosity, what example of lightness can you ascribe to VDGG???

When you talk of lightness/frolicksomeness in INSTRUMENTAL prog a good example is Bo Hansson. His music stands out unique from the rest of progdom because of this un-ponderous composition.

Prog was more-than-often dark.

Lyric-wise, one of the darkest lps I know is not some abrasive punk or noise band like Swans, but Procol Harum's "Home".

[PHILLYQ]

I"m neither of those two, but I'd highly recommend Damnation, Watershed, or Ghost Reveries.

many thanks for the recs, Lonson, I'll check 'em out.

Well, I got 'Ghost Reveries', and while not much of a metal guy I like what I've heard of it. The sweep of the music and the dynamics remind me of Mars Volta somewhat. Very interesting so far and I have another disc coming.

[Shawn]

Glad you're digging it so far. Ghost Reveries is a very dense record, takes awhile to really sink in (at least that was my experience, I usually end up liking those kinds of albums best).

[A Lark Ascending]

Here's what prog is really about, the bands who define it:

Caravan, Camel, Egg, Cressida, Fruupp, Khan, T-2, Fantasy, Stackridge, Indian Summer, Van Der Graaf Generator, Family, Jonesy...

There's a subtle British charm, a whimsy, a sense of humor, an experimentaism, a lightness of touch - that all characterize true prog.

...............

Good post, Robert

I beg to differ with a lot of your points though.(Ive not included all.)

....

About the lines Ive parsed - probably half those bands you mention are in fact PROTO-prog, not prog proper.

Charm - most certainly. But about the whimsey and lightness of touch -there is actually not over-much of that in prog (of the period you detail.) Yes, ocassionally there is Lear/Carollian nonesense-type prog lyric (to give example, Gryphon "Flash In The Pantry",Stackridge "Snark",Yezda Urfa "My Doc Told Me I Had Doggie Head", Crimson "Catfood") but whimsey was really to the fore in the UK POPSIKE of late 60s, not prog.

Prog lyrics tend towards darkness/seriousness.Subjects of (dark)fantasy/mythology, social concerns,nature. Even something as silly-sounding as Genesis' "Willow Farm" has more sinister overtones on re-thought (and connected to the bigger picture of that particular epic.)

Sure Caravan is full of lightness, but Caravan were at the later point where prog melded into the more overt playfulness of Canterbury and one or two more subgenres.(I suppose Family has light elements but, admittedly contrary to most progheads pidgeonholing, Ive never really rated them Prog. They seem more Queen/Supertrampish to me.)

Out of curiosity, what example of lightness can you ascribe to VDGG???

When you talk of lightness/frolicksomeness in INSTRUMENTAL prog a good example is Bo Hansson. His music stands out unique from the rest of progdom because of this un-ponderous composition.

Prog was more-than-often dark.

Lyric-wise, one of the darkest lps I know is not some abrasive punk or noise band like Swans, but Procol Harum's "Home".

You have to remember that 'prog' is a retrospective label. I can recall the term 'progressive' being used around 1970 but the diminutive came later - used either mockingly by the unsympathetic or defensively by musicians/fans trying to stress that they weren't taking themselves too seriously.

The bands and musicians who were later compartmentalised into particular genre boxes were, at the time, part of a broad swathe of rock music that we selected from as it took our interest. In 1970-72 I was buying the Moody Blues alongside Chicago, King Crimson alongside Fairport Convention, Genesis and Yes alongside Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin, Caravan alongside Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. Others had Clapton, Hendrix, the Grateful Dead and all manner of things in the mix. They all seemed part of the same rich tapestry. Therein lay dark and light, whimsy and attempted seriousness, the gazelle-like and the turgid.

The idea of 'prog' as a genre comes later - partly a historic term used to tidy up the period, partly a term used by the next generation of bands to describe their music. I think that's what often happens. The sense of a definite genre is a second-generation thing. The first period is much more messy (and, dare I say, interesting).

Might look different from abroad*.

* abroad = beyond the British Isles

Edited July 8, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[Guest Wallace]

"Prog" or "progressive", it doesnt matter. (I write it "prog" because its shorter, thats all. Im certainly not differentiating in (your observed)meaning.) I wont go so far as to say you are deliberately looking to derail where I was going, but you ARE nitpicking in this prog/progressive thing.

Enough.

What I was stating is that the origional poster was, perhaps unconsciously, laying down a fair amount of psych-prog borderline bands, not straight prog.

Thats okay - I myself prefer protoprog to prog.

But the difference had to be pointed out.

Of course all these compartmentalizations were not writ in stone BACK IN THE DAY, - and very likely not even acknowledged. It was no ivory tower but often messed-up teens/rebels whose only credo to follow was to set off into something unique. The bands didnt have a manual of progdom in front of them, they did not firmly state "we are going to venture into these unfurrowed feilds of PROGGISH time signatures,etc for the first time. The pioneers were going SOMEWHERE a bit different. They had no setout guide or label for it. That of course came much later.

The bands didnt really care to aim for a select pidgeonholed sound. It was a true meltingpot atmosphere.Another thing that people dont realize is that BEFORE IT BECAME MERE CARNABY FAD POSTURING and such, the psych timeline was VERY SLIM. Too slim to call it a proper anything, nevermind break the thing down into smaller movements.

Its us anal music forum posters that do care to . Why so? Well one good reason is that music , unlike the other arts, is most difficult to put into words and comparisons/ attempted genre-breakdowns sure damn well help.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Wallace

[A Lark Ascending]

In the end, from my perspective, it was all just very enjoyable pop music, often so well crafted that it's still fun to listen to 40 years later.

Whilst I can see that worrying whether something is prog or "psych prog" (not sure what that is or was) might matter to some I just enjoy it for the tunes and the colours and, above all, the nostalgia.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[Guest Wallace]

True the Italian scene did not differentiate between pop and prog.(But we can forgive them this oversight.)

Prog was never pop. (Well at least not till AORprog like Saga and much neoprog came in. But that was DELIBERATE commercialization of prog.)

[Guest Wallace]

And I will not accept your "nostalgia" (apparent putdown) comment either.

Number one rule: nothing is dated. (Well...maybe disco, but lets not get into that.)

Prog of today is going incredibly strong, thank you very much. In some cases quality being even better than the 70s.

[PHILLYQ]

Glad you're digging it so far. Ghost Reveries is a very dense record, takes awhile to really sink in (at least that was my experience, I usually end up liking those kinds of albums best).

I listened to about half of it and I had to stop because it was a lot of music to digest in one sitting. What I heard I liked.

[Guest Wallace]

Bev asks:

"Anyone know when this music got labelled 'prog'?"

I'm sure this can be dug-up quite easily on the net, or perhaps Macan's excellent book.

But why bother.

Like I said, its not important. If they didnt call it prog ,it would have been called something else.

And it wouldnt be the artists labelling themselves, but the promotors/rags/critics.

So, who gives a fig?

If it helps any, here are two very early posters (and whatnot) mentioning THE WORD and - some might be surprized to learn this - Hawkwind from the first lp mentioning the term "spacerock"!!!!

attachments_07_09_2010.zip

[7/4]

In the early 80s we in NJ started calling it progrock because it was shorter to say.

simple as that.

[A Lark Ascending]

Here's one I had back in the day. Came out in '69, think I bought it late 70.

Seems the word was already a marketing term by then.

Track list is interesting:

Side 1

1. Touch: Down At Circe's Place (4:47)

2. John Mayall: Where Did I Blong (3:08)

3. Savoy Brown: Train To Nowhere (4:05)

4. Johnny Almond: Voodoo Forest (3:32)

5. East Of Eden: Communication (3:23)

Side 2

1. Genesis: In The Beginning (4:08)

2. The Moody Blues: Nights In White Satin (4:19)

3. William R. Strickland: William R. Strickland Is Only The Name (4:37)

4, John Cameron Quartet: Go Away, Come Back Another Day (4:59)

5. Keef Hartley Band: Not Foolish, Not Wise (3:50)

Only two of the regular suspects.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[Guest Wallace]

Yes.

That's the cover that usually comes up in discussions of this sort.

Of course you can understand they are using (at this point) the dictionary definition, not the "symphonic/art rock" one.

What you have here is a lot of "progressive-moving" blues-rock.

I used to have this lp also. Got rid.

Forget what Cameron Quartet was about - sounds classical - but seem to recall Strickland as being dark loner-folky.

I wonder what TOUCH band that is? This seems to be a UK comp, but THE Touch band's lp is considered to be the first US prog lp. Ive heard it was issued in UK (but I think without the origional gimmix sleeve??), so likely thats them.

[A Lark Ascending]

John Cameron

[Aggie87]

Pigs flew again last night. Waters and Gilmour performed together at a benefit...

Apparent setlist:

To Know Him Is To Love Him

Wish You Were Here

Comfortably Numb

Another Brick in the Wall (Part Two)

Edited July 11, 2010 by Aggie87

[Guest Wallace]

Apparent setlist:

To Know Him Is To Love Him

Wish You Were Here

Comfortably Numb

Another Brick in the Wall (Part Two)

If that indeed was what they chose to play, that was one concert best avoided.

[Aggie87]

Apparent setlist:

To Know Him Is To Love Him

Wish You Were Here

Comfortably Numb

Another Brick in the Wall (Part Two)

If that indeed was what they chose to play, that was one concert best avoided.

Yeah, because Lord knows you can always see them on their frequent tours...

[7/4]

Apparent setlist:

To Know Him Is To Love Him

Wish You Were Here

Comfortably Numb

Another Brick in the Wall (Part Two)

If that indeed was what they chose to play, that was one concert best avoided.

Yeah, because Lord knows you can always see them on their frequent tours...

but look at the tunes...ugh!

[Aggie87]

From Roger Waters' Facebook account:

So here's what happened. Last year, 'The Hoping Foundation' a charity that supports Palestinian refugee kids, (www.hopingfoundation.org) put on a fund raiser at Ronnie Scott's Club in London, the idea of which was to raise money by auctioning karaoke performances by various celebrities. David was there as a supporter and was moved to perform an impromptu rendition of George Gershwin's 'Summertime?' which he performed aided and abetted by supermodel Kate Moss.

In the wake of that evening, someone, I think it was David himself, came up with this 'Wouldn't it be funny', idea. What if he (David that is) were to sing the old Teddy Bears song 'To Know Him Is To Love Him' with me (Roger that is), what with us having been so famously at each other's throats for years and years. Get it!!!! Anyway he E-mailed me with this suggestion and I loved it, so then it was just a question of juggling dates and deciding to do 'Wish You Were Here' and 'Comfortably Numb' to round out our little set. Or so I thought, until he sent me a number of very musical and eloquent demos of how we could do the song in two-part harmony. I listened with a sinking heart, knowing that David, with his superior vocal skills, could sing either part standing on his head, whilst I would have to search for a different key and then struggle through hours and hours of routining a performance that lay way outside my vocal comfort zone. To my eternal shame I bottled out and told Dave I would happily do 'Wish You Were Here' and 'C. Numb', but that 'To Know him is to Love him' was beyond me.

Some weeks passed with David cajoling me from time to time, telling me how easy it would be, but I clung resolutely to my fear of failure until one day he made one final entreaty. I quote "If you do 'To Know Him Is To Love Him' for The Hoping Foundation Gig, I'll come and do 'C. Numb' on one of your Wall shows". Well! You could have knocked me down with a feather. How fucking cool! I was blown away. How could I refuse such an offer. I couldn't, there was no way. Generosity trumped fear. And so explaining that I would probably be shite, but if he didn't mind I didn't, I agreed and the rest is history. We did it, and it was fucking great. End of story. Or possibly beginning.

Roger

PS. Just heard from David, he will decide in due course which gig he wants to do, it will be a surprise!

[7/4]

To Know Him Is To Love Him is the interesting tune...I'm not a fan of the Wall.

[Guest Wallace]

To Know Him Is To Love Him is the interesting tune...I'm not a fan of the Wall.

Damn right!

"The Wall" is an atrocity.

One and a half lps worth of narration, drone & pure filler; half lp worth of anything remotely compositionally-decent.

The only thing worse than this is one of their cack lps that followed it - "Direct Cut" I think the lp was called??? That "Floyd" lp is typical Waters' verbosity and WHINE.

[Aggie87]

"The Wall" is an atrocity.

One and a half lps worth of narration, drone & pure filler; half lp worth of anything remotely compositionally-decent.

The only thing worse than this is one of their cack lps that followed it - "Direct Cut" I think the lp was called??? That "Floyd" lp is typical Waters' verbosity and WHINE.

I think that's a little extreme. The Wall isn't their best album, but it ain't bad. Definitely some filler, but I'd rather listen to PF filler than alot of other band's best stuff.

Also, the subsequent album is called "The Final Cut". It is essentially a Waters solo album, with minor input from Gilmour/Mason (Wright was out of the band at that point).

I'm more of a Gilmour fan than a Waters fan, but I think in their prime together before things got out of balance, they were a great combination.

[Guest Wallace]

I offer up this proof that "The Wall" is substandard pop cwap:

It was only with "The Wall" and subsequent output that females started to perk-up ears to the music.

[Aggie87]

I offer up this proof that "The Wall" is substandard pop cwap:

It was only with "The Wall" and subsequent output that females started to perk-up ears to the music.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you saying The Wall generated female fans for PF? You make it sound like it's bad for females to like music that males like?

And I'd suggest that the reason The Wall generated new fans (regardless of gender) is because of the radio hits. That these fans weren't fans since Piper doesn't have any bearing on The Wall itself.

It's not my favorite PF album either way (and Final Cut is probably my least favorite PF album, for the record), but it's certainly not substandard pop "cwap".