Viva Prog Rock

[A Lark Ascending]

That 80s Crimson clip with the Talking Heads guy in the lineup sounded pretty good to me. I'm sure I saw that when it was originally broadcast on the OGWT (early to mid-80s?).

Then 'Discipline' is the album you want:

I didn't much care for that version of KC at the time (not enough of Fripp's wonderful snakey guitar); but have come to enjoy them since.

Should be obtainable very cheaply.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Bev Stapleton

[sidewinder]

Thanks ! I'll keep my eye open for a vinyl copy.

That film clip of KC live on stage in the early 70s looked good too (there was an interesting altoist in the lineup).

Think I'll stay clear of some of the music though. Never could get into Rick Wakeman's solo albums of the time (and in the mid-70s most of my friends were playing this stuff 24/7 through their Koss headphones, along with Van Der Graaf, Uriah Heep, Gentle Giant etc).

[A Lark Ascending]

That film clip of KC live on stage in the early 70s looked good too (there was an interesting altoist in the lineup).

Think I'll stay clear of some of the music though. Never could get into Rick Wakeman's solo albums of the time (and in the mid-70s most of my friends were playing this stuff 24/7 through their Koss headphones, along with Van Der Graaf, Uriah Heep, Gentle Giant etc).

Ian MacDonald. I think he ended up in Foreigner!!!!!!!!!

I hated the Wakeman solo albums even at the time - in fact I was never that keen on Wakeman. The arrival of synths in these bands in force around 1973 also took away some of their lustre for me. I was always happier with pianos, electric pianos, organs and the glorious mellotron. Synths (which were monophonic at that time) encouraged keyboard players to squiggle a great deal.

It's worth remembering that 'prog' was but a part of a very varied music scene and was far from an exclusive genre. At the same time there was lots of soul and Tamla type music in the charts, bubblegum pop and then glam-rock. The 1969-76 years of prog also saw folk rock (Fairport, Steeleye, John Martyn etc), lots of ongoing blues-rock bands. Where do Led Zeppelin and their ilk fit in? - heavy metal hadn't yet been codified and those of us buying Yes albums were also buying their records. Then there were all the American bands - Chicago, Grateful Dead, Crosby Stills, Nash and Young etc. And it's often forgotten that one of the biggest successes of the 71-3 period was 'soft-rock' - Carole King, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young ('Harvest' was huge in 1972) etc (that's what the girls were listening to if they didn't care for the charts!). There was also a subterranean scene of country influenced bands in the UK, drawing off the likes of the Byrds and the Burritos - I recall Bob Harris having a particular thing for bands like Home and Help Yourself. And all manner of outright weird experimentalism from people like the Third Ear Band and Henry Cow. And psychedelic/spiritual kooks like Quintessence and Gong. And much, much more. Most people I knew were listening to the lot and picking our own favourites rather than adhering to a single genre.

One of the points that it was easy to lose in the programme was when they were talking about the festivals and how you'd get a complete mix of performers and the audience would listen curiously to the lot. I recall going to an all day event where I sat through the short lived Carla Bley/Jack Bruce Band, Steeleye Span and the then chart topping Steve Harley! Maybe the same holds true today - I don't know. I do know that in the punk aftermath what really turned me away from rock/pop music was how mono-dimensional and doctrinaire it seemed to become (more 'you can't do that because it's pretentious' then 'why don't we try this').

The official history of rock writes off the early 70s through the prism of the punk perspective of '76 - and its easy to dismiss it as 'bloated prog'. For those of us who listened through that era and didn't re-educate ourselves when the fashions changed it still holds a memory of a time where anything was possible in music. In retrospect I can see that most of the musicians lacked the musical knowledge to take things much further...or perhaps, more truthfully, were unable to follow their instincts without losing what audience they had and, consequently, the record company support. But what I really value about that era is that it introduced me to so many musical possibilities. When rock dried up for me c.1976 I had a number of seeds that I could follow up - jazz, folk, classical.

[sidewinder]

and the glorious mellotron. Synths (which were monophonic at that time) encouraged keyboard players to squiggle a great deal.

Quite a few of those on last night's show. Wasn't Graham Bond the first artist to use these on an LP release? ('There's A Bond Between Us' - Parlophone)

I think it mentioned that the mellotron player for The Moody Blues actually worked for a while at the Birmingham factory where these were put together. Hence his enthusiasm !

[sidewinder]

From Wikipedia:

Among the early Mellotron owners were Princess Margaret, Peter Sellers, King Hussein of Jordan and Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.[citation needed]

L Ron I would have expected, yes - but Princess Margaret into prog rock ?

[A Lark Ascending]

From Wikipedia:

Among the early Mellotron owners were Princess Margaret, Peter Sellers, King Hussein of Jordan and Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.[citation needed]

L Ron I would have expected, yes - but Princess Margaret into prog rock ?

She did go to Ronnie's sometimes so maybe she just had curiosity!

There was a great programme about the mellotron a year or so back on Radio 4. They are making them again, apparently.

Some lunatic has catalogued every record to use a mellotron here:

http://www.planetmellotron.com/index.htm

Edited January 3, 2009 by Bev Stapleton

[Jazzjet]

Thanks ! I'll keep my eye open for a vinyl copy.

That film clip of KC live on stage in the early 70s looked good too (there was an interesting altoist in the lineup).

Think I'll stay clear of some of the music though. Never could get into Rick Wakeman's solo albums of the time (and in the mid-70s most of my friends were playing this stuff 24/7 through their Koss headphones, along with Van Der Graaf, Uriah Heep, Gentle Giant etc).

Ian McDonald ( the altoist ) made an excellent album with Mike Giles ( another founder member of KC ) titled 'McDonald and Giles' ( 1971 ). It also featured Steve Winwood and Peter Giles. Contains an obligatory 20 minute suite titled 'Birdman'. Some of the lyrics should be preserved in aspic, as should the sleeve.

McDonald & Giles

I haven't had a chance to watch the Prog Rock Britannia programmes as yet but does it touch on the question of the earliest prog albums? I've always thought it to be either The Who Sell Out or The Moody Blues' 'Nights in White Satin'. Any thoughts?

[7/4]

Sgt. Peppers.

dB

[A Lark Ascending]

Sgt. Pepper was given pride of place as the LP that made the 'album' as it became possible.

Procul Harum's 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' also got special mention as a single that came from somewhere else.

The Moody Blues 'Days of Future Passed' (which had Nights in White Satin as its closing number) was a curiosity - I can't recall the full details but I believe it started as a Decca light orchestral record to demonstrate audio equipment. Someone came up with the idea of have a rock group between the orchestral bits and a real 'concept album' took shape.

Edit: I'm not quite right there. Wikipaedia tells us:

Originally, the Moodies' label, Deram, had wanted them to record a rock version of Dvořák's New World Symphony in order to demonstrate their latest recording techniques. Instead, the band (initially without the label's knowledge) decided to focus on an album based on an original stage show that they'd been working on.

The concept of both the stage show and the album was very simple, tracing an "everyman's day" from dawn to night, from awakening to sleep. The seven tracks spawned two hit singles: "Tuesday Afternoon", which on the album was actually titled "The Afternoon: Forever Afternoon (Tuesday?)", and "Nights in White Satin" which hit No. 2 five years after the LP's original release. Both remain commercial radio mainstays across various formats and de rigueur performances in concert.

The project was almost doomed to failure as executives at Deram Records felt that combining rock and symphonic music would both alienate rock fans and enrage symphonic fans. The album's subsequent success led to other criticism about implied drug use, especially with such lines as "the smell of grass just makes you pass into a dream" and "those gentle voices I hear explain it all with a sigh." Despite such early criticism, Days of Future Passed paved the way for progressive offerings from other bands and remains one of the Moody Blues' most popular releases ever.

The original packaging credited the orchestral parts to "Redwave/Knight". "Knight" was conductor Peter Knight, while "Redwave" was an imaginary name representing the Moody Blues themselves. (Knight built the orchestral parts around themes written by Hayward, Thomas, Pinder & Lodge). Also, the packaging failed to give titles or credits for Graeme Edge's poems "Morning Glory" and "Late Lament".

Edited January 3, 2009 by Bev Stapleton

[Shawn]

Where do Led Zeppelin and their ilk fit in?

[Jazzjet]

Sgt. Pepper was given pride of place as the LP that made the 'album' as it became possible.

Procul Harum's 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' also got special mention as a single that came from somewhere else.

The Moody Blues 'Days of Future Passed' (which had Nights in White Satin as its closing number) was a curiosity - I can't recall the full details but I believe it started as a Decca light orchestral record to demonstrate audio equipment. Someone came up with the idea of have a rock group between the orchestral bits and a real 'concept album' took shape.

I remember selling quite a few copies of Days of Future Passed when I worked in a South Ken record shop back in the day, a lot of them to audiophiles.

Not sure about Sgt Peppers being the real precursor of prog, although it blazed a trail in its use of the recording studio. What about Freak Out by the Mothers of Invention, released in 1966? Also, as a precursor of the emphasis on technique and musicianship in prog, bands like Cream and The Nice were important.

[A Lark Ascending]

I remember selling quite a few copies of Days of Future Passed when I worked in a South Ken record shop back in the day, a lot of them to audiophiles.

Not sure about Sgt Peppers being the real precursor of prog, although it blazed a trail in its use of the recording studio. What about Freak Out by the Mothers of Invention, released in 1966? Also, as a precursor of the emphasis on technique and musicianship in prog, bands like Cream and The Nice were important.

The Nice featured quite strongly in both the doc and the BBC extracts programme just before (doing 'America').

The Moody Blues were my first favourite band c.1970. They are forever associated with Newquay where I bought their albums with the money I earnt washing dishes in 'The Fort' restaurant overlooking the harbour.

As Dennis Potter often maintained, even the most inauspicious music can retain a power by association, throwing you back to an earlier time in your life.

[sidewinder]

Sgt. Pepper was given pride of place as the LP that made the 'album' as it became possible.

Procul Harum's 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' also got special mention as a single that came from somewhere else.

The Moody Blues 'Days of Future Passed' (which had Nights in White Satin as its closing number) was a curiosity - I can't recall the full details but I believe it started as a Decca light orchestral record to demonstrate audio equipment. Someone came up with the idea of have a rock group between the orchestral bits and a real 'concept album' took shape.

I remember selling quite a few copies of Days of Future Passed when I worked in a South Ken record shop back in the day, a lot of them to audiophiles.

Not sure about Sgt Peppers being the real precursor of prog, although it blazed a trail in its use of the recording studio. What about Freak Out by the Mothers of Invention, released in 1966? Also, as a precursor of the emphasis on technique and musicianship in prog, bands like Cream and The Nice were important.

Wasn't it on Deram? (the Decca 'prog rock/jazz imprint). In any event, there are a lot of old vinyl copies out there. I see them all the time.

[sidewinder]

Some lunatic has catalogued every record to use a mellotron here:

http://www.planetmellotron.com/index.htm

Maybe it was Sellers who talked her into it?

Thanks for the link.

I love their rating system. Cuts to the chase.. the Penguin Guide should use it

Ratings (music):

½: utter shite

*: shite

*½: very poor

**: poor

**½: below average

***: average

***½: good

****: very good

****½: excellent

*****: classic

Ratings (Mellotronness):

0: nothing audible

½: next to nothing; maybe background use on one track

T: one decent track, or a couple with background use

T½: one or two tracks

TT: two decent tracks

TT½: two or three tracks

TTT: good use, borderline worth buying for that alone

TTT½: worth buying for the Mellotron

TTTT: lots of 'Tron

TTTT½: loads of 'Tron, though not necessarily innovative

TTTTT: stuffed to the gills, and preferably innovative

Edited January 3, 2009 by sidewinder

[Shawn]

Hendrix should also get some credit for recording studio breakthroughs...

[Jazzjet]

Wasn't it on Deram? (the Decca 'prog rock/jazz imprint). In any event, there are a lot of old vinyl copies out there. I see them all the time.

Days of Future Passed was indeed on Deram. It was recorded to promote parent company Decca's Deramic Sound System ( DSS ). Good move for the Moodys!

[Jazzjet]

The Moody Blues were my first favourite band c.1970. They are forever associated with Newquay where I bought their albums with the money I earnt washing dishes in 'The Fort' restaurant overlooking the harbour.

As Dennis Potter often maintained, even the most inauspicious music can retain a power by association, throwing you back to an earlier time in your life.

If its the same place its recently undergone a £380,000 refurbishment ( Cornish for a fortune ).

[7/4]

Hendrix should also get some credit for recording studio breakthroughs...

Ahem...LES PAUL.

[BFrank]

Hendrix should also get some credit for recording studio breakthroughs...

Ahem...LES PAUL.

Yes.........but certainly Jimi (w/Eddie Kramer's help), too.

[Aggie87]

Interesting little tidbit direct from Billy Sherwood today, from the Progressive Ears website (at the end of this thread, which is a Yes year-in-review thing).

Billy,

Can you shed some light as to why you (I suppose it could've been someone else) were added as a "sideman" for the Talk tour? The previous "Yeswest" tours for 90125 and Big Generator had JA, TR, CS, AW and TK on stage. The same lineup recorded Talk. Why the need for a 6th person on stage? Was it more to flesh out the instrumentation or to beef up the vocals? Perhaps another reason?

Billy:

"There was a period when Chris was going to be ejected from YES, after the talk record was completed and before the touring started. When I first got the call with that intel I was shocked. There were many issues driving that concept for change at the time... Some known of, some not known of let's just say.

That said I was asked to learn all the bass parts for the Talk tour, I did so and began rehearsing with the band, without Chris. We played for a few weeks like that then "YES" politics we're sorted out and we carried on. At that point I had all the bass lines at the ready. It was at that point Trevor said there are so many auxilarly parts to cover why don't you play this guitar part or that keyboard part or sing this or that and he along with the others we're very inclusive bringing me into the musical picture. I found that line up extremely gracious musically speaking. I look back on playing the Talk tour with fond memories and was honored to be a part of that version of YES."

It sounds like the original intent was for for Squire to be ousted, with Billy Sherwood taking his place as bassist. After some reconciliation or something, Sherwood did some production work for Yes on the Keys to Ascension material, and then became a full fledged band member afterwards.

The plan to dump Squire is interesting, though.

[Shawn]

Yes.........but certainly Jimi (w/Eddie Kramer's help), too.

It was the Kramer connection I was sort of referencing.

[7/4]

I wonder what tossing Squire from Yes was all about. What was wrong???

dB

[Shawn]

I wonder what tossing Squire from Yes was all about. What was wrong???

dB

Doesn't Squire own the rights to the name Yes? I thought that was the reason for "Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe".

[7/4]

I thought so too.

.

[Guitarjazzer]

The Beatles were more progressive than some people would want to admit. I love the double bass style they used on Rubber Soul one with a regular bass tone the other using extreme distortion on bass acting as a lead guitar on "Think For Yourself".

Whether its the raga rock rhythms using Indian Instruments on "Love You To" or the Symphonic "Eleanor Rigby" or how they changed time signatures on bridges of their songs. Some have said Art Rock began with the Beatles in 1966 when they recorded Tomorrow Never Knows. Many of the weird sounds in this recording are produced by overdubbed tape loops lengths of tape edited to themselves to create a perpetually cycling signal. The Beatles used a small number of tape loops over and over in this recording. How many different loops can you hear. "Strawberry Fields Forever" is Art Rock with psychedelic influences. They did some weird things all those backward looped effects on guitar and vocals. The sitar based songs and instead of using guitars they used Indian Instruments to create drone as you hear on "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds" with the later combined with altered keyboard sounds.

"A Day in the Life" I think is progressive rock and much of Side Two on Abbey Road is now classed as Progressive Rock. As for Zappa Freak Out has some jazz and avant influences but I would not call Freak Out progressive rock.