EAI

[jon abbey]

thanks, Tony, I didn't know those were up.

for people coming from free jazz/free improv, interested in this area and not sure where to dip in to begin with, I think the Rowe/Beins is a great starter for the field. (disclaimer, for anyone who doesn't realize it, the Rowe/Beins is on my label, Erstwhile).

maybe John B can chime in as to whether he thinks that's true or not...

[John B]

thanks, Tony, I didn't know those were up.

for people coming from free jazz/free improv, interested in this area and not sure where to dip in to begin with, I think the Rowe/Beins is a great starter for the field. (disclaimer, for anyone who doesn't realize it, the Rowe/Beins is on my label, Erstwhile).

maybe John B can chime in as to whether he thinks that's true or not...

I would agree with that. The Rowe/Beins set is fairly short, it is not, for the genre, too abstract or "out there," and it is a lot of fun.

Other Ersts I would choose for someone coming into the field from a free jazz/free improv background would be:

EL003: Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann schnee_live

As it is, again, relatively short and focused and very accesible. I am still trying to figure out what I think of this set but, at a minimum, it would be a great place for someone to start.

004-2 (double CD): Thomas Lehn/Gerry Hemingway Tom and Gerry

Gerry Hemingway's wok on this one provides a nice bridge from free jazz to eai.

005: Keith Rowe/Günter Müller/Taku Sugimoto The World Turned Upside Down

031: Martin Siewert/Martin Brandlmayr Too Beautiful To Burn

These two discs are just beautiful. I find both of them to be among the most accessible discs of eai I have heard and they are both still, after many listens, among my favorites.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

[WD45]

I would welcome such a thread. On eai, that is. I don't care for Jazz Corner. Haven't browsed seriously there in years. Still get those bulk emails from Lois, tho.

[jon abbey]

Gerry Hemingway's wok

[Joe]

Well, Gerry does sport some badass dish towels on-stage...

[Guest Chaney]

I must admit, after some of the raucous noise we've mentioned listening to in the Funny Rat thread, it's a bit amusing getting recommendations on how to e a s e our way into eai. Not at all dissing anyone; just found it amusing.

I believe I'll dig out John's avatar and give that one another listen tonight. Let's say 7:00, cup of coffee in hand, in the dark?

[jon abbey]

I must admit, after some of the raucous noise we've mentioned listening to in the Funny Rat thread, it's a bit amusing getting recommendations on how to e a s e our way into eai. Not at all dissing anyone; just found it amusing.

with all due respect, I don't think that the Funny Rat thread gets much into "raucous noise", if at all, which is an entirely different genre. it seems to stick mostly to Euro free improv (as a style, not a geographic location).

if you're curious about noise, try a Prurient CD, or Kevin Drumm's Sheer Hellish Miasma at high volume, or most Merzbow, just a few examples...

[John B]

I must admit, after some of the raucous noise we've mentioned listening to in the Funny Rat thread, it's a bit amusing getting recommendations on how to e a s e our way into eai. Not at all dissing anyone; just found it amusing.

with all due respect, I don't think that the Funny Rat thread gets much into "raucous noise", if at all, which is an entirely different genre. it seems to stick mostly to Euro free improv (as a style, not a geographic location).

if you're curious about noise, try a Prurient CD, or Kevin Drumm's Sheer Hellish Miasma at high volume, or most Merzbow, just a few examples...

Not to speak for Chaney, but I believe his definition of "raucous noise" is something along the lines of the Brotzmann Tentet at full blast.

Sheer Hellish Miasma, despite the title, is an absolutely beautiful record. Not for the faint of heart, however. I have Land of Lurches on deck to listen to later on tonight. I'm hoping it approaches the achievement of SHM.

There is a poster over on I Hate Music, sevenarts, who is self-releasing his own ambient and noise laptop releases. I listened to one last night and was very impressed.

If it wasn't for Gerry Hemingway's wok, I never would have gotten started listeing to eai in the first place. That and his skillet the drums.

Edited February 2, 2005 by John B

[John B]

if you're curious about noise, try a Prurient CD, or Kevin Drumm's Sheer Hellish Miasma at high volume, or most Merzbow, just a few examples...

You can drown yourself in this:

what is that? The Merzbox?

[Guest Chaney]

I must admit, after some of the raucous noise we've mentioned listening to in the Funny Rat thread, it's a bit amusing getting recommendations on how to e a s e our way into eai. Not at all dissing anyone; just found it amusing.

with all due respect, I don't think that the Funny Rat thread gets much into "raucous noise", if at all, which is an entirely different genre. it seems to stick mostly to Euro free improv (as a style, not a geographic location).

(...)

True, Jon, but I'm using the words 'raucous' and 'noise' by/for their definitions and not as some sort of genre label. I do understand what you're saying though.

[WD45]

what is that?  The Merzbox?

most of it...

Behold!

[sonic1]

I am glad to see this thread catch a little.

As far as I am concerned, easing people into EAI is just wrong.

I just played Good Morning Good Night for a friend who knows nothing about EAI and he really really dug it.

He hardly has much experience with EFI.

[jon abbey]

As far as I am concerned, easing people into EAI is just wrong.

I just played Good Morning Good Night for a friend who knows nothing about EAI and he really really dug it.

He hardly has much experience with EFI.

that's awesome, but that's different. a lot of people think the Tokyo crew is the most interesting scene I document, but they're almost never people with a Euro free background, as on the Funny Rat thread. I'm guessing your friend has familiarity with other aspects of Japanese culture?

Jared, you would have enjoyed Tim Barnes playing along to 'Good Night' in the Experimental Intermedia festival in December, great sound system in Niblock's place. I haven't heard the recording yet, maybe an ErstLive candidate...

Tony, what did you think of La Voyelle Liquide?

[John B]

that's awesome, but that's different. a lot of people think the Tokyo crew is the most interesting scene I document, but they're almost never people with a Euro free background, as on the Funny Rat thread. I'm guessing your friend has familiarity with other aspects of Japanese culture?

I agree with Jon here. From personal experience it took repeated listens and what I assume to be a change in the way I thought about what I was hearing for me to really start appreciating the first discs I picked up on Erstwhile. The Hands of Caravaggio is a great example of this. The first few times I heard it I found it to be extremely forbidding and abstract. I now find much warmth and accessibility in the same sounds that once put me off. The only change was with my perceptions. For me, the Tokyo crew is taking a lot more time to come to terms with, most likely due to the differences, both cultural and experiential, that Jon alluded to. For most people coming from this board, and the comments I have read by people in the Funny Rat thread in particular, the "Vienna" discs would make for a much better starting point. Of course, that isn't to say that any one of the people I just referenced couldn't pick up Bar Sachiko and love it immediately.

[sonic1]

I have a history of listening to euro improv and I loved the tokyo stuff immediately. But I had some intro with onkyo and other japanese music.

My friend is more of a straight up jazz guy. He is a real music freak. But he lacks much understanding about EFI. And no connection to japan either. My influence might be at play here. I did preface it pretty well. I got him into the europeans and I WILL get him into EAI.

Edited February 3, 2005 by sonic1

[Guest Chaney]

Tony, what did you think of La Voyelle Liquide?

Unfortunately, my plan was interrupted by a long phone call so...

I'll try again tonight.

[Guest Chaney]

Günter Müller/Lê Quan Ninh: La Voyelle Liquide

Had another listen.

Often interesting sounds. I like the acoustic -- especially the percussion and bell-like instruments -- but can't often feel the electronic elements. Reminds me a bit of computer generated art or animation and their lack of warmth and texture; there's no air present, the sounds don't breathe, the characters are without soul. (And I don't mean that in a religious type of way.) There's no inner life. For me, it's the difference between the sound of the human breath and a hospital respirator.

Just not getting it. (Just not able to get it?)

That being said, I'm still curious and have my eye on the two live Ersts.

[jon abbey]

Chaney, do you like any electronic music? (not meant to be obnoxious, just trying to figure out your perspective)

[Д.Д.]

I think the Funny Rat thread can work as this all encompassing area for sound exploration.

An area for opening up to all of the creative and "unusual" sounds present - whether it be

EAI or just EA, phonography or even "wok 'n' roll."

Maybe we've been referred to by others as funny rats in our taste in music

So, maybe it can continue as is?

rod (who's yet to check this thread out )

---

Now playing: Karlheinz Stockhausen - Interview (Pt. 2)

Well, I have problems telling "jazz" from "non-jazz", so classifying something as EAI (as opposed to AI, E or EFI) is an insurmountable challenge for me. Some of the music that others call EAI I like (like Drumm's "Particles and Smears"), some I don't (like Sachico M's "Do").

As for "easing" somebody's way into music, I could never understand the point of it - if you want to go for something new, do it - don't go for something "semi-new" or "partially-new".

[Guest Chaney]

Chaney, do you like any electronic music? (not meant to be obnoxious, just trying to figure out your perspective)

I was a fan of Tangerine Dream BUT only their material from the '70s and early-'80s. I guess we're talking krautrock? (Never liked that term.)

When I was younger, I had no problem with electronic instruments but it sometimes seems to me that the time for those instruments and their sounds has passed. (Thinking especially of those wonderful oh-so-dated sounds of '80s new wave music.) True, it's possible to put the latest machines to better use but their dominance on certain recordings just leaves me cold. NOT to say that the sounds generated aren't interesting, it's just that I like to form some sort of connection to what I'm listening to and that connection is missing in my VERY limited exposure to eai.

What keeps me somewhat interested is the fact that certain persons who I repect are able to appreciate this music so I feel that there just has to be something there. Maybe not for me, though.

As for "easing" somebody's way into music, I could never understand the point of it - if you want to go for something new, do it - don't go for something "semi-new" or "partially-new".

I agree.

[sonic1]

Tony, if it is any consolation I never thought of myself as an electronic music person. If you were to tell me even just 5 years ago that I would be agog for this electro-acoustical music, and that my favorite musician would be a turntablist I would probably have committed suicide.

I never liked "turntable" music, and I hate most fusion. The only electronics I really got into at all was Stockhausen et al, and some of what braxton.

This stuff is far better than even that. And I can listen to Otomo Yoshihide play with his no-input turntable all day long now.

I have changed. But also the music has changed. It is not just the gimmick of unusual sounds at play here. These people are very talented and are creating a new music language-little by little. That is what keeps me listening.

Not to say that I don't go back to Cannonball Adderley once in a while. I still like jazz and the whole gamut of the genre. But I can't ignore this EAI stuff. It is just too interesting.

Jared

[jon abbey]

I was a fan of Tangerine Dream BUT only their material from the '70s and early-'80s.  I guess we're talking krautrock?  (Never liked that term.)

I'd personally only describe TD's first record, Electronic Meditation, as "krautrock", after that any rock influence is pretty much gone (if I recall correctly, that's the only album where Conrad Schnitzler is a member).

as for the rest of your post, maybe eai's not for you. I strongly disagree with your comments about emotion and soul, but I think they're there, just in a different way from what you're used to hearing. the best eai musicians often have a strong personality (as anyone who's seen a Keith Rowe solo set in the last few years will testify to), but it's often wildly different from project to project, and needs to be pieced together by listening to a bunch of a musician's projects (not that the best CDs don't stand on their own).

anyway, if you're still interested, I'd recommend checking out something from the Vienna crew if you haven't already (maybe Too Beautiful to Burn or Wrapped Islands).

As for "easing" somebody's way into music, I could never understand the point of it - if you want to go for something new, do it - don't go for something "semi-new" or "partially-new".

I agree.

I'm not talking about "semi-new" or "partially-new", I'm talking about which areas of a huge field a listener might best connect with. if they're coming from a noise background, I'm going to point them to the Rowe/Beins, the Rowe/Fennesz, or maybe the Lehn/Schmickler (as far as Ersts go). if they're coming from a contemporary classical background, I'm going to point them to Duos for Doris, Hands of Caravaggio, or maybe the upcoming four hour set. and if they're coming from a Euro free improv background, I'm going to point them in the direction of the Europeans before the Tokyo stuff.

every person is different, whatever works for you, I'm just trying to help based on my experience.

[Guest Chaney]

every person is different, whatever works for you, I'm just trying to help based on my experience.

Understood and appreciated.

[jon abbey]

apologies for the promotional message below, but I know you guys enjoy a good sale, especially when it's in semi-worthless American currency. I sent this to my mailing list just now, so if you've ordered from me before, you've already seen it, but in case anyone is interested in dipping an initial toe into the Erstwhile catalog, now's the time:

==============================================

OK, in the 5-plus years I've been running Erstwhile, I've never had a sale before, and I don't expect to have one again for a while. but I moved this week, and am having a "I have too much stuff and not enough money" one-time sale, through the end of February, details below.

all single CDs are $10, doubles $15, plus my shipping estimate. buy any 5 releases, get an additional single CD free. the box set is still $100 plus shipping, but you also get two single discs of your choice included for free. sale ends last day of February and is only good for all-Erstwhile orders directly through me at ErstRecs@aol.com. no preorders will be accepted; this only applies to releases out now. please e-mail me your orders before sending money so I can tell you the correct shipping.

the full catalog is listed here, 010 is OOP, and 004 has only a handful of copies left, everything else I've got...

http://www.erstwhilerecords.com/catalog.asp

thanks for your time!

[Д.Д.]

I know you guys enjoy a good sale...

Will be placing an order soon.