McMaster/RVG Reissues

[stew3859]

To my embarrassment, I'm just realizing that there are apparently two sets of BN reissues, those remastered by Ron McMaster and those by RVG. I have a few of the McMaster reissues and I must confess, I was not impressed with any of them. Sound is compressed and there is little, if any, sounstaging, imaging, etc. Without turning this into an audiophile forum, the fact is, after investing in a dozen or so of the McMaster titles, I was pretty much resigned to finding original or good vinyl reissues of classic BN titles. Can anyone discuss what the relative strengths/weaknesses are of the McMaster/RVG remasters and perhaps suggest which titles might be worthy of reconsideration? Thanks.

[scottb]

Stew, welcome to the board! We are glad to have you.

The McMaster / RVG debate has been discussed ad nauseum. I'm sure if you did a search you could come up with a wealth of material.

The short story is that there are not a lot of McMaster fans on this board although there are a few. Most people agree that the early McMasters aren't too good and thus are glad to see the RVG series redo them. Many prefer the Japanese reissues both JRVG and TOCJ. Later McMasters are bit better but still inconsistent. These are usually Conns, nonRVG Blue Notes done in 20 or 24 bit and the Mosaic box sets.

To me the RVGs are less compressed and have much more clarity in both the bass and high end. Some might say too much high end and have even speculated about RVG having some high frequency hearing loss.

That's what I think are some the high points of the debate.

Edited January 30, 2005 by scottb

[J.A.W.]

Some might say too much high end and have even speculated about RVG having some  high frequency hearing loss.

Older people always have increasing high-frequency hearing loss. Some more than others, though.

[J.A.W.]

It's also very system-dependent. Many compressed remasters and/or remasters with bumped-up higher frequencies may sound OK on mid-fi gear, but on high-end systems the sound's often crap.

[Dan Gould]

It's also very system-dependent. Many compressed remasters and/or remasters with bumped-up higher frequencies may sound OK on mid-fi gear, but on high-end systems the sound's often crap.

Which is why I don't think, as the thread asks, "any generalizations can be said".

Welcome to the board, Stew.

[J.A.W.]

It's also very system-dependent. Many compressed remasters and/or remasters with bumped-up higher frequencies may sound OK on mid-fi gear, but on high-end systems the sound's often crap.

Which is why I don't think, as the thread asks, "any generalizations can be said".

I agree.

And welcome indeed, Stew.

[wolff]

Sound is compressed and there is little, if any, sounstaging, imaging, etc. I was pretty much resigned to finding original or good vinyl reissues of classic BN titles.

Good luck finding these qualities on any RVG or McMaster.

How many originals do you have? What are you comparing the sound of the CD's to?

Try a couple Classic Records mono vinyl titles for an eye opener.

[garthsj]

Some might say too much high end and have even speculated about RVG having some  high frequency hearing loss.

Older people always have increasing high-frequency hearing loss. Some more than others, though.

:(

Edited January 30, 2005 by garthsj

[J.A.W.]

Some might say too much high end and have even speculated about RVG having some  high frequency hearing loss.

Older people always have increasing high-frequency hearing loss. Some more than others, though.

:(

...including me, of course (58 next month)

[jazzbo]

Welcome! I'd invite you to compare some RVGs to other domestic and import versions . . . which is an expensive thing to suggest so I won't invite you!

Yes, I was so happy to have my ears measured recently and find that my hearing is normal and not diminished; I've taken great care over the last tgwo decades to protect my hearing and that paid off!

[J.A.W.]

Yes, I was so happy to have my ears measured recently and find that my hearing is normal and not diminished; I've taken great care over the last tgwo decades to protect my hearing and that paid off!

Congratulations. It's a fact though that when you get older, your hearing will diminish, however slowly; it's part of the aging process.

Edited January 30, 2005 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

Yes, I know. I still don't wear glasses of any kind, even for reading, though I'm almost 50. I guess I'm some sort of mutant. (Fish oil helps!)

Edited January 30, 2005 by jazzbo

[Dan Gould]

Yes, I was so happy to have my ears measured recently and find that my hearing is normal and not diminished; I've taken great care over the last tgwo decades to protect my hearing and that paid off!

Congratulations. It's a fact though that when you get older, your hearing will diminish, however slowly; it's part of the aging process.

A really disturbing fact, because I lost hearing as a child, supposedly due to a childhood illness, and my time on the radio with headphones on didn't exactly help. So I'm not even 40 and sometimes wonder if I need to think about a hearing aid (or at least that I'll need one sooner rather than later).

At least on the positive side, my hearing isn't acute enough to notice or care about all these supposedly inferior remasterings. It all sounds good to me, I just hope I can still hear it in 20 years!

[jazzbo]

That's really a good viewpoint. . . I listen to a lot of stuff from cassette tapes dubbed from private recordings, from scratchy lps. . .and am so happy to be able to hear it! I've tried to limit my rebuying of stuff for sonic reasons, b u t it sure is nice if you can buy the better sounding stuff the first time! B-)

[wesbed]

See the McMaster/RVG discussions located here and here.

These are, supposedly, Ron's own words here.

Enjoy. B-)

Edited January 30, 2005 by wesbed

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

I'd forgotten about that one, Wes....thanks for resurrecting it.

[Leeway]

See the McMaster/RVG discussions located here and here.

These are, supposedly, Ron's own words here.

Enjoy. B-)

Hadn't read McMaster's comments before--very interesting. Thanks.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I hope to be able to post more of Ron's words on Claude's thread about the "NoNoise sound" of the Moncur select. Ron's a pretty nice guy to talk to. He swears he is only trying to get us "master tape sound". I go back & forth with his work... ditto RVG. I tend to dig RVG's remasters for the piano and maybe organ, but the cymbles sound like crap on quite a few of his remasters. RVG also has missed on a couple that sound like AM radio.

I don't know... I can't say for sure which I like better.

FYI, the latest batch of Connoisseurs sound very good to my ears, even Mobley's "The Flip", which I though sounded bright on vinyl. I thought Ron McMaster did a good job flattening that out.

Lon, there seems to be a lot of us that think RVGs are bright, and since I read where you felt "The Flip" sounds better on LP, is there a chance that your set-up has a high fequency dip? I mean no disrespect, but it would be worth checking out. If it turns out to be true, I may try to dupe your set-up. I find a lot of today's rock & roll remasters are too bright as well.

Later,

Kevin

Edited January 30, 2005 by Kevin Bresnahan

[jazzbo]

There's not a dip, but I can shelve the treble down on the ribbon tweeters on my speakers by using wirewound resistors and I do lower the output of my tweeters so that the treble is less pronounced (I listen in a small room and I have to in order to get a balanced sound). Also in my opinion a lot of solid state amplification has "grit and grain" in the treble and I dislike that; I find my tube amplification to have a smoother and more tolerable treble. (I'm just not a solid state fan any longer after living with tubes for a decade; I've got a B&O system in the living room now that sounds pretty good--it ought to for what it cost the original owner, I inherited it recently--but I'd really rather have tubes, and I don't really listen to much music on it as my tubes sound more like music). The two lp burns that I have sound better than the Flip Conn to me on my system; the Conn sounds thinner and more digital. I really think that even if he is not using Nonoise, that the Sonic Solutions console imparts something to McMaster's work; I don't dig the sound. JVC's XRCD engineer has commented that he won't touch that console because it makes things sound immediately "digital". . . . I prefer RVGs because they don't sound as thin and brittle as McMasters. Sure there are some duds, but to me there are fewer duds and McMasters I find almost uniformly disappointing in their thinness.

I know it's just personal opinion after a point, but I just lately listened to someone else's system with a Denon receiver and some Heresys and I'm so glad to be back to my system! Man it was bright and gritty! The owner thought it sounded great. Ultimately it's mostly subjective. I'd rather have Addey and RVG remaster, but I'm not the producer.

Edited January 31, 2005 by jazzbo

[wolff]

I think, anyone can try a ww resistor to reduce the treble. It's easy if you have two sets of binding posts. Just put it across the tweater posts. If not, pull out the tweater and put it across the +/- terminals. 10 watt, but I forget how many ohms.

To the original poster.....

What titles do you have? On CD? On vinyl? Also, how do you know Blue Notes have imaging and a soundstage in any format/issue, be it original vinyl or 24 bit CD's from original tapes?

Here are my recommendations sound-wise for a few.

Larry Young: Mothership (CONN/McMaster)

Jimmy Smith: Prayer Meetin' (RVG) A lower octave of room rumbling bass from the B3 that's absent from the original vinyl, or my tt set-up does not track it. Amazing!!

Andrew Hill: Dance with Death (CONN/McMaster)

Sam Rivers: Fuchia Swing Song (CONN/McMaster) RVG high frequencies without the smear. Very Nice.

Edited January 31, 2005 by wolff

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Does anyone know what Rudy Van Gelder uses as his digital remastering station? He may use a Sonic Solutions station himself. I'll try to ask Cuscuna what RVG uses. Now that'd be interesting....

The only other thing I can add about RVG CDs is that I have had a couple that I tried inverting the polarity and I thought they sounded much better. Maybe a placebo, but no matter, I thought Shorter's "The All Seeing Eye" improved dramatically when I inverted the polarity. Too bad it's such a pain in the ass to do. Impossible in a car.

BTW, I think Andrew Hill's "Dance With Death" Connoisseur CD is one of Ron McMaster's best remasters.

Later,

Kevin

[jazzbo]

When the series first started there was an article in Stereophile in which RVG was quoted as using dcs 24/96 converters, "Elgar" model if I am not mistaken. These are very good converters according to the pro and audiophile world! Since then he has talked a lot about DSD remastering in interviews, who knows he may be using a Sony DSD station or some such.

The polarity issue is real if you ask me. It's a pain, but I'd rather go through that than listen to McMasters. McMasters in general just sound thin to me at work, and on both my systems at home. I don't have a car so don't have that listening experience.

Edited January 31, 2005 by jazzbo

[Bluerein]

Rudy isn't using Sonic Solutions gear. And transfers with 24 Bit, 44.1 kHz!!!

Edited January 31, 2005 by Bluerein

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Rudy isn't using Sonic Solutions gear. And transfers with 24 Bit, 44.1 kHz!!!

Reinier, I don't understand... Ron McMaster's bench is also 24 bit, 44.1 kHz. I believe one of the differences is that his station has SBM.

SBM may be the root of this. I've read where a lot of people don't like the sound they hear with SBM. Remember those CBS gold CDs? They were touted as superior because of SBM. Most people today consider them inferior because of SBM. Only a couple, like Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" and Roger Waters' "Amused to Death" get written up as "best available".

A good question would be, "Can SBM be turned off on a Sonic Solutions remastering statyion"?

Later,

Kevin

[Bluerein]

What don't you understand Kevin???

You'll have to get back to 16 Bit, 44.1 for cd so SBM is one way to organize the bit's back to 16 bit. There are also other "systems" doing this so you don't have to use Sony's method for it. Don't know what Rudy uses for this. The DSD thing Lon talked about Rudy uses for the SACD's he did (and does) so not for the RvG series.