shawn·m Posted March 14, 2003 Report Posted March 14, 2003 (edited) In ’61, I think Dolphy’s muse was more esoteric than was Trane’s —based on the recorded evidence, anyway. Didn’t Trane have to put up with defending both his music and playing with Dolphy? First the critics were confused, then Trane and Dolphy were stumped by the confusion surrounding them! I wonder did Tynan ever eat his “anti-jazz” words later? Ed Jackson, don't forget Ed Jackson! Oh, and Jazzmoose, someone soliciting your opinion on Quartet Out on another bulletin board. Edited March 14, 2003 by kartoffel·hadi blues Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 14, 2003 Author Report Posted March 14, 2003 There are other jazz boards? Quote
minew Posted March 14, 2003 Report Posted March 14, 2003 Didn?t Trane have to put up with defending both his music and playing with Dolphy? First the critics were confused, then Trane and Dolphy were stumped by the confusion surrounding them! In most cases, and I really like this about him, Trane gave responses along the lines of "I'm sorry if what I'm playing makes some unhappy, it's just what I have to play right now." Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted March 14, 2003 Report Posted March 14, 2003 Moose, here comes some "unspam". I think the Art Ensemble box is too much for someone looking for ways into the music. Instead, get the Art Ensemble disc on EMI and some other stuff with the extra money left over. Then, if you want more, I'll be happy to sell you one. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 14, 2003 Author Report Posted March 14, 2003 Gasp! I'm shocked!! You sound more like a music lover than a businessman; you'll never get anywhere with an attitude like that! Maybe you're right. Perhaps a big box set isn't quite the way to "wet my feet". Sigh... By the way, all kidding aside; I'm impressed... Quote
Alexander Hawkins Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 From someone trying to get into this music, who just got Ayler's 'Spiritual Unity', LOOK NO FURTHER!!!!!! Quote
Simon Weil Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 (edited) Well, I can go "oh dear" again...I actually didn't know (or hadn't looked..or something) about the EMI disk. But it has "People in Sorrow" on it, which would have been top of my list to recommend if I'd known it was out. So, yeah, what Chuck says is right. Simon Weil Edited March 15, 2003 by Simon Weil Quote
Simon Weil Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 Just to make slight justification of the Art Ensemble Box (The guy who produced a set says don't buy it, but I disagree...aaargh). It's kind of an instinctive thing. In a way, I think the too-muchness of the set is a good thing. It's like it gives you all this stuff to work with, work through, so that it becomes a kind of testing ground for acclimatization. All this assumes that Mark is going to like the Art Ensemble, and that's really the weakness of my position. Somehow I have the idea he will. Anyway... Simon Weil Quote
JSngry Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 For me, the best single disc introduction to the AEC would be MESSAGE TO OUR FOLKS. that's got a bit of everything on it. Don't know how readily available it is right now, though. But BAP-TIZUM & FANFARE FOR THE WARRIORS ARE readily available, and are excellent as well. Same for NICE GUYS on ECM, which lives up to it's title - totallt "accessable" w/o any musical compromise. By that token, a dip into Lester Bowie's solo dates, with or without Brass Fantasy, might be called for. Now THAT'S some fun stuff. Two ECMs, THE GREAT PRETENDER (w/o BF) & I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU (w/BF) are thoroughly entertaining and supremely musical. The thing to remember about the AEC is that you're not going to be getting JUST "free jazz" per se. They're about a WHOLE lot more than that. Quote
David Williams Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 Message To Our folks is available on Charly as a budget-priced twofer with Jackson In Your House - at least in the UK. Quote
dug Posted March 15, 2003 Report Posted March 15, 2003 I would recommend O'Neal's Porch by the William Parker Quartet. Hamid Drake's drum work is incredible. Quote
Green Dolphin Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 Don't give up on Ornette Jazzmoose,may I suggest starting backwards with him and lending an ear to his "latest","Colours",a live duo set with pianist Joachim Kuhn from 96.For the record "Change Of The Century" is probably the most accessible of the Atlantics. I can see ,however, that some people just can't connect with him and the sound grates(Tim Berne's an alto player who goes against my grain) Quote
.:.impossible Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 Jazzmoose, I can only imagine that you are already a Mingus listener since no one has mentioned his music yet. If not, I would definitely recommend a classic Mingus recording like Blues and Roots or something from the Johnny Coles, Clifford Jordan, Eric Dolphy front line. Especially if you aren't so familiar with Dolphy. Mingus had his roots firmly planted and his branches fully outstretched. I would also recommend the live Sam Rivers trio disc on impulse! Free and funky. The Blue Note stuff is also great. I'm trying to think of something that is truly free... How about some ESP recommendations guys? Sunny Murray anyone? Quote
brownie Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 JazzMoose, you already have quite a list. Here are a few added recommendations: - Charles Tyler 'Voyage from Jericho' and 'Saga of the Outlaw', - Sonny Murray 'Hommage to Africa' - Sun Ra 'The Magic City' - Marion Brown Quartet (ESP) Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 18, 2003 Author Report Posted March 18, 2003 Jazzmoose, I can only imagine that you are already a Mingus listener since no one has mentioned his music yet. Well, I don't know if everyone knew, or just missed him! Mingus is well represented on my shelves, but you're right to recommend him; I'd forgotten about some of his more adventurous stuff, which I've been exposed to and like (I particularly remember the song Eclispse. While the soulful stuff is well represented on my shelves, this is certainly an artist I should explore more. Quote
Alexander Hawkins Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 Sunny Murray - I recently got his self-titled ESP album, which I reckon is a pretty intriguing listen. The other Murray I own is 'Sunshine' on BYG/Actuel. Maybe Sunny Murray is a good place to start with very free jazz, since his compositions (on these albums at least) are structurally clear, and fairly easy to stick with melodically. If you go the Art Ensemble route, the first work I heard was 'Message...', which is a good way into the genre (speaking as someone who got into it that way!); especially since you can hear them doing a recognisable tune (Bird's 'Dexterity') in an accessible post-Dolphy style. However, the Art Ensemble album which I've been absolutely mesmerised by for the last two weeks (it practically hasn't left my CD player) is 'People in Sorrow', which is truly one of the most beautiful pieces of jazz (or any other genre) I can think of right now. Quote
brownie Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 Sonny Murray indeed. He is a one-man incarnation of 'Free Jazz'. Any of the albums he recorded with Cecil Taylor and Albert Ayler is a living demonstration of how great and a master of freejazz drumming he is. And the intensity is just overwhelming. A couple of rare Murray dates that have gone out of print are the two dates he recorded with his Untouchable Factor unit: - Charred Earth on the Kharma label, - Apple Cores on Philly Jazz. Both are really worth looking for. Hate myself for not having mentioned Jimmy Lyons yet. You can hear Lyons and Murray on 'Jump Up/What to do about' on HatHut (they play in a trio with bass player John Lindberg). Lyons and Murrau were members of the Cecil Taylor Unit in the early '60s. Quote
Kevin Bresnahan Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 I know Walter hates it when I refer to this essay he did on the rec.music.bluenote newsgroup many years ago, but it is germane to this discussion so here's the link: http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/avantgar...arde/avant1.htm Check it out. BTW, Walt checks in over at Jazz Corner's Speakeasy on occassion. He's one of the nicer guys I used to chat with on rmb, back in the days before bulletin boards! Man, was that already 10 years ago?? Later, Kevin Quote
ADR Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 Most of the recommendations so far have been of the "energy" or "loud" free jazz subgenre. I would recommend also taking in the revolutionary recordings of the Jimmy Giuffre trio with Giuffre on clarinet, Paul Bley on piano, and Steve Swallow on bass. ECM has recently reissued two great verve studio albums ("Thesis" and "Fusion") of this group as a twofer cd entitled "1961". There are also two amazing live albums by this trio on the hatArt label entitled "Empahsis, Stuttgart 1961" and "Flight, Bremen 1961". This was a short lived group but was incredibly influential on the subsequent developments in free jazz. The music they played was way ahead of its time (maybe this is the reason it didn't find much of an audience in the early 60's) and as you listen to it you would swear it was recorded at the Knitting Factory a few years ago instead of in 1961. The Giuffre trio takes a "quiet" or "soft" approach to free improvisation and the interaction among the three of them is amazing. Check it out. ADR Quote
Jad Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 Can't neglect Coltrane's "Ascension", which I've been listening to more often lately. Free jazz is kind of hit or miss with me (not a big fan of Ornette, but last time I heard "The Shape..." it sounded better than I remembered) but I concur with above opinions on Ayler's "Spiritual Unity". It sounds a bit more melodic than "skronk", which is why music like Art Ensemble escapes me. Also check out Trane's "Kulu Se Mama" which has some nice African rhythyms to it. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 Jad, what do you know of the Art Ensemble's output? Quote
ralphie_boy Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 As far as the ESP-Disk catalog, here's a few that I consider to be essential: Marion Brown Quartet Charles Tyler - Eastern Man Alone Frank Wright Trio New York Art Quartet Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity Sun Ra - Heliocentric Worlds Vol I and II Quote
ralphie_boy Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 Oh yeah.. and then there's Archie Shepp on Impulse: Fire Music, Live in San Francisco, Mama Too Tight, The Way Ahead, On This Night, For Losers. Quote
Jad Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 Jad, what do you know of the Art Ensemble's output? Admittedly very little. A friend tried to turn me on to them awhile ago but it didn't work for me. Quote
minew Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 F.M.I., What's the best way to order the Nessa AEC box? Quote
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