Free Jazz Recommendations

[Jazzmoose]

The "Free Jazz Charlatans" thread over on the misc./non-political thread brings to mind a request. I normally hate looking ignorant in public (shut up, berigan!), but I'll admit, I know squat about this area of jazz. Can some of you who are into the scene clue me in on some good starter discs so I can get some exposure?

[JSngry]

You hip to Ornette? If not, might as well start there.

Shepp's Impulse! sides are good starting places, because they're not always "free", so there's some context there. Same w/early Cecil - you want/need to make a transititon from the hard bop to the freer stuff, these are sides to assist.

How far have you gone on the Trane ride? INTERSTELLAR SPACE is one you'll probably listen to for the rest of your life once you get on board. Simply some of the most fully realized music ever captured on record.

AEC - ANYTHING. Do you and Chuck BOTH a favor and get his AEC box while he still has it available.

PLEASE check out Henry Threadgill - a guy of your intelligence and humor should be able to scope this guy out in nothing flat!

There's SO much more, and plenty newer things as well. Geez Moose, what got you on this kick anyway?

[minew]

There are thousands of places to start but why not at the beginning with:

Ornette Coleman, The Shape of Jazz to Come

John Coltrane, Interstellar Space

Albert Ayler, Spiritual Unity

Or with some current issues,

David Ware, Flight of I

Fred Anderson, On the Run

Anything with William Parker and Hamid Drake as the rythym section.

Other can fill in with AACM classics and Cecil Taylor, musts that I am underqualified to comment on.

Edited March 12, 2003 by minew

[Jazzmoose]

There's SO much more, and plenty newer things as well. Geez Moose, what got you on this kick anyway?

You know darn well what punctured my "hard bop shell", you rat! A few spins of your disc and my head exploded!

I've got Shape of Jazz to Come, which never clicked for me; I'll give it another try. I've got Coltrane through the Altantic, but only Expressions and Newport '63 on Impulse (God, that version of "My Favorite Things" is AWEsome!!). Guess that'd be a good place to expand. Chuck's AEC box is on my budget plan for April. (Man, if work doesn't pick up pretty soon...) Threadgill sounds interesting; I'll give him a shot.

[Chuck Nessa]

John Litweiler's book "The Freedom Principle" is a reliable "walk thru the music". It still sends me to the "record player" to listen to stuff he writes about.

[AfricaBrass]

I just downloaded some Joe McPhee cds from emusic. They're reissues of late 60's/early 70's recordings that have been re-released on Atavistic label. I'm really enjoying them. I've only heard newer stuff by McPhee. I like these a lot so far.

[Green Dolphin]

Recommendations would probably be best served in relation to what you like listening to now.Also what sounded "free" in the late 50's can sound pretty tame these days.If you mean from the early days then best start with Ornette's Atlantics(or indeed the two Contemporary's),Cecil Taylor's Looking Ahead and the Candids moving onto the more difficult Unit Structures and Conquistador.Then of course Coltrane post Love Supreme(First Meditations would be a good toe in the water if it's still available as a single disc)before immersing yourself in such things as Ascension.Art Ensemble(and Roscoe Mitchell's "Sound"),Archie Shepp and plenty more treats will follow.

I must admit I'm no authority on today's splintered free scene but check out Ken Vandermark,Joe Morris,Peter Brotzmann(save 68's Machine Gun for a while!).I'm sure there's other board members who'll fill you(and me!) in with contemporary must haves.I'm not one really for sub-genres,it's either good or bad,as the Duke said.

By way of an edit how could I have forgotten Ayler-Spiritual Unity knocked me sideways when I first heard it("What the hell is this?").And forgot Ware too,any of the DIW's are worth having,Godspellized is awesome but the two Columbias would be a good start,backwards probably...Surrendered first then Go See The World.

Edited March 12, 2003 by Green Dolphin

[dug]

Try "Bounce" by John Lindberg.

[SEK]

David Rosenthal's Hard Bop is another fine book. It traces the development of Jazzmoose's [current] favorite jazz style/era/stream/(?) and ends with the musics that emerged in hard bop's wake, including "Free Jazz". It dovetails nicely with John Litweiler's excellent The Freedom Principle, a book that I still occasionally revisit (but the discussions therein usually send me back to my CD player, instead of to my turntable, these days ) There's lots of valuable discographical guidance in both books.

[Simon Weil]

If Hard Bop is where Jazzmoose is coming from, he might like to try Oliver Nelson's "Screaming the Blues." This is a pretty straight ahead date with the addition of Eric Dolphy whose solo interventions energize the record to my ears. Dolphy isn't really free; more or the borderline between...But this is a real good record in my opinion. AND it's the way I found into freer Jazz from other disciplines.

Once you get into Dolphy (if you do), that can take you elsewhere. Maybe.

Simon Weil

[Jazzmoose]

I must insert here that the Moose already digs Dolphy very much! Out to Lunch is definitely one of my personal "top ten" discs. I don't have a lot of Dolphy, but I have Iron Man and The Illinois Concert. My Dolphy exposure is limited only by my funds. That guy is absolutely amazing! I always thought of him as more avant garde than free, however. But like I've said before, these labels seem to be a very slippery thing after hard bop...

[shawn·m]

Speaking as a “free jazz” noob, I’d recommend Ed Jackson’s Wake Up Call. While it’s hardly a classic landmark recording, I do think it does an amazing job of showing how freer jazz elements fit within a larger jazz context.

[J Larsen]

Moose, I can give you a 99% guarantee that you'd love Conversations by Eric Dolphy (with a 1% chance that you'll just really like it). It features Bobby Hutcherson, Clifford Jordan, Sonny Simmons, Woody Shaw, Richard Davis and is somewhat similar to Out to Lunch. It's perhaps a bit more "inside". If you see it, I say grab it.

[David Williams]

Can some of you who are into the scene clue me in on some good starter discs so I can get some exposure?

Well I've been into the scene for just 4 months or so, but this is how it went for me.... comments on the BNBB and Jazz Corner finally piqued my curiosity, Peter Brotzmann's and Hamid Drake's 'Dried Rat Dog' and the Amassed CD gave me a varied introduction and led me to trying Evan Parker in various settings from solo to dectet as well as more recordings involving Barry Guy, Brotzmann, William Parker, Joe Morris.... in short, once I realised that I was enjoying sound, timbre and tonality without, necessarily, obvious melody and rhythm a new world was revealed (really, no exaggeration). The last few days I've been listening to little but Evan Parker's and Eddie Prevost's 'Most Materiall' 2CD set - beautiful conversations between sax and percussion (and not percussion played like I've ever heard before - I think he uses a bow a lot).

A 'recommendation? Try Barry Guy's London Jazz Composers' Orchestra's 'Theoria' - a free improvisation piano concerto, with Irene Schweizer's sparkling piano in the lead role and an 8-piece (I think) band performing the role of the 'orchestra', though with plenty of solo and group improvisation

Edited March 14, 2003 by David Williams

[James]

GOM just said what I was about to suggest. If you're coming from a more mainstream place the two compositions on Intuition (Intuition & Digression) will feel relatively accessible, and were recorded long before The Shape of Jazz to Come.

[Peter Johnson]

Hopefully it's not too obvious a suggestion, but Ornette's Live at the Golden Circle (volume 1) got me started.

[Jazzmoose]

I'm completely unfamiliar with Tristano's work (gasp!), so anything would be new.

Peter, for me there is no "obvious" recommendation so any is welcome! I started to pick that one up when the RVG came out, but was leery of it simply because of The Shape of Jazz to Come. Speaking of which, I listened to it again today, and I guess I just don't get Ornette. And I definitely don't get Don Cherry. Lonely Woman sounds to me like a beautiful song that Cherry does his best to sabotage. Maybe that's a clue to help with recommendations for me, guys: love Dolphy, not so hot on Ornette...

[Simon Weil]

Oh dear, having said Da Moose can get Free via Dolphy, I'm a bit stuck now that I find he already likes him. My first thought was "Free Jazz" itself (the Ornette album)...My instincts, however, say:

1) Gunther Schuller/Abstraction - This is a kind of atonal third-stream record with solos from Dolphy, Ornette et al. Pretty accessible to my ears.

2) Conference of the Birds/Dave Holland - tunes plus Anthony Braxton, Sam Rivers etc.

I think maybe you want to go at this thing sideways. Use avant-garde "bridge" recordings (and players, like Dolphy) to "acclimatize" yourself to a "freer" ethic - and then work your way in. In that context some of the early Art Ensemble recordings (e.g. Roscoe Mitchell's "Sound" or Chuck's Art Ensemble box) might be the deal. Also I second John Litweiler's "The Freedom Principle" as a useful way into this music - if you respond to books.

Incidentally, Dolphy was one of the guys who got the charlatan thing...

Simon Weil

[Peter Johnson]

Well--although I think you will like at least the first track on vol. 1 of Golden Circle, and I know you already like Dolphy, why don't you give Dolphy's "Out There" a spin? Relatively, I think it can be pretty straight, but it's a great record. Dolphy live at the Five Spot is also nice, with some great trumpet work by Booker Little.

[king ubu]

Another one for Chuck's AEC box.

Then with Cecil Taylor you could also check out one of his solo discs, as for instance the great recent issue of his Willisau 2000 concert (on Intakt).

My Name Is Albert Ayler: a wonderful session including a great take on Gershwin's Summertime and some free playing, with a not free at all scandinavian rhythm section (who not always are up to the game). This could be a good start, somehow standing between free and more mainstream (but Ayler sounds somehow a little uncomfortable on a Charlie Parker tune).

Great recommendations all!

Maybe you could look for Don Cherry's "Complete Communion" (a recent Conoisseur), then return to Ornette.

ubu

[shawn·m]

Incidentally, Dolphy was one of the guys who got the charlatan thing...

It seems odd that Dolphy should have been tagged a charlatan. The man had a very identifiable style with his trademark intervallic leaps. Even on the surface, there’s a distinct method at work.

[Gary]

its by no means an all time classic , but why not try 'free jazz classics Vol1 & 2' by the Vandermark 5 .

Its 2 CDs of their interpretations of tracks by Ornette, Archie Shepp , Eric Dolphy etc . Its an excellent buy & may give you some pointers of what artists to look out for , it has for me since it was recommended to me by another member of this board.

Albert Ayler - 'Spritual Unity ' or 'Spririts Rejoice' 2 fine ,fine CDs.

[JSngry]

It seems odd that Dolphy should have been tagged a charlatan.

It's more than odd, it's ignorant. The guy was a virtuoso of staggering proportions on all three of his instruments. What he did facilitywise on bass clarinet alone is really awe-inspiring, and, as far as I know, unprecidented (if I'm wrong, somebody PLEASE let me know).

Just goes to show you that criticism, be it of intent or facility, is often based on ignorance. Not always, but often.

[Simon Weil]

Incidentally, Dolphy was one of the guys who got the charlatan thing...

It seems odd that Dolphy should have been tagged a charlatan. The man had a very identifiable style with his trademark intervallic leaps. Even on the surface, there’s a distinct method at work.

There's an interview on the Dolphy video (?Last Date - very nice) where an older European musician recalls thinking along those lines until he actually got to sit down in front of Dolphy and he see what he could do. Then he was totally blown away (I think this was a rehearsal for something).

My view is that if something is unfamiliar and people don't get it, they can easily fall into thinking "well, there's nothing in it" - and thence to thinking the whole thing is a con. That's especially so in the fraught musico-cultural scene that surrounded the appearance of "Free" etc. I mean there was long discussion about whether, specifically, Coltrane and Dolphy *circa 1961* was "anti-Jazz". I mean Coltrane circa 1961 - who can believe that? Yet it was done. I guess some of that, kind of musical paranoia, fed into Dolphy having to prove himself.

That 1961 Village Vanguard Coltrane box with Dolphy etc is really fine...

Simon Weil

[Jazzmoose]

This is great, guys! So far, the definites are the book The Freedom Principle, Chuck's AEC box and more Dolphy. Then, assuming this board doesn't pull a Blue Note (and I'm sure it won't as a REAL PERSON is in charge!), I can come back for more guidance. So feel free to make more recommendations. I may not act on them immediately, but I will act. You know, this thread is the kind of thing that I came to jazz boards for in the beginning; I'm missing the BNBB even less now. And I haven't been this excited about the music in a couple of years either. Again, thanks!