Name some Blue Note cds you find overrated

[Rooster_Ties]

And the title-track from "In Pursuit of the 27th Man" (9:44), is anything but typical Horace Silver.

[JSngry]

And...The Music Of The Spheres is often far enough evolved that one could be forgiven for hearing it blind and thinking that the works were those of a "Silver-influenced" composer.

No paradigms ever get shifted, but there is a slow but ongoing evolution on display with Silver's Blue Notes that can be interesting in and of itself, if one i so inclined as to be interested in that sort of thing. I often am (or have been), but I can see where that will not a universally held opinion.

And hell, if all you wanna do is dance, hey, there's this, all day long and into the night:

[Rooster_Ties]

I think the only really overrated BN title that's coming to mind is Blue Train.

Certainly not a bad date, but I always find it under-rehearsed, and not as good as its lofty street-credit usually implies.

A good date that was nearly "really good" (or it certainly aspired to be) -- but I seem to remember often seeing it on "top-20" lists, and I usually think, really?

Edited March 16, 2014 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Truthfully - truthfully - I think this whole "overrated" and "underrated" thing is missing (or at least diverting) the point, which is, I think - truthfully - appreciation, fuller appreciation. Not necessarily of the music as "music", but as human in-deavor, both of the individ-uals, and of the cultures (overlapping and specific) that created these things. And then, take that appreciation and go forth, not looking to "rate" (ie.- "measure", which is such a limited concept, really) but to appreci-rate! Yeah, some things will be nearer and dearer, but that's one thing, among many. Or hell, do it in reverse. But just do it, because people never really change, never, not really. It looks like they do, but no, not really, they don't. They just don't. So...yeah.

[.:.impossible]

[quote name="JSngry" post="1347623" timestamp="

6 Pieces too, that one is a blast from start to finish, but if I had to be stuck for a couple of days listening to the intro to "Enchantment", I think I'd survive it just fine.

Again, the tune is pretty "obvious" in it's math, but here again, flavor is there to be extracted, and it's all good like that.

[JCR1992]

Bobby Hutcherson's Head On was a disappointment to me. I checked out some samples of it and every track sounded great. Well I guess whoever did the samples did a great job of picking out the best 30 seconds of each track. There was only one song I truly enjoyed and that was the bonus track "Jonathan". This was my first and only Hutcherson purchase. I do see myself getting more albums of his. "Oblique" and "San Francisco" both sounded good to me.

I also was somewhat disappointed in Lee Morgan's Delightfulee. I just started my Lee Morgan collection this February and have bought 11 or 12 albums of his. Everything has been superb but this was one I was expecting a little more from and I didn't get that. The quintet tracks were lacking something and I don't really know what it was. The big band tracks were also somewhat of a letdown. I haven't given up on this CD yet though.

[mjzee]

My opinions on BNs simply mirror my tastes elsewhere. Much avant-garde leaves me cold, so I avoid the Cecils, Ornettes, and those that are AG-tinged (Andrew Hill, Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue, Basra, etc). I love gutbucket jazz with intelligence, so I generally love the Dexters, Mobleys, Morgans, etc. Not so intelligent, I don't love so much: the Lou Donaldsons, Reuben Wilson, etc. A lot of the late-50's dates, the ones that rely on standards, I don't love so much. But as prior posters pointed out, a date isn't "overrated" if it was never much loved to begin with: Night of the Cookers, Dodo Greene. But as another poster said, I'm not as much interested in pointing out disappointing dates as I am hunting down dates I might love. I'm therefore looking forward to hearing more Freddie Roach and BN Elvin Jones (I just downloaded the Mosaic box from iTunes for $30).

[JCR1992]

I agree I'm not much of a fan of Avant-Garde jazz. However, I thought this Hutcherson recording was going to be more rooted in early jazz fusion similar to "Mwandishi". But it was just an inconsistent effort IMO. I do agree with you about Dex and Lee but Mobley I just haven't been able to get into yet. Everytime I listen to him solo something just kind of bores me about it. That is true I do agree with that. I have to keep in mind "Head On" has never really been mentioned as a classic. It's not like it "Happenings" or "Dialogue" I mentioned. I was thinking about purchasing some Elvin Jones Blue Note albums. I just don't know where to begin with him. I might just buy them in chronological order.

[mjzee]

With Mobley, you want the ones with other strong players and that showcase his great writing and arranging skills. I'd try one or two of the following: Workout (with Grant Green), And His All-Stars (with Milt Jackson), Dippin' (Lee Morgan), Hi Voltage (Jackie McLean and Blue Mitchell), and A Slice Of The Top (nice larger ensemble).

[Clunky]

Hank's early 60s albums are IMO his best . Roll Call, Soul Station, Workout . Best place for Hank naysayers to genuflect after listening .

Edited September 1, 2014 by Clunky

[JCR1992]

With Mobley, you want the ones with other strong players and that showcase his great writing and arranging skills. I'd try one or two of the following: Workout (with Grant Green), And His All-Stars (with Milt Jackson), Dippin' (Lee Morgan), Hi Voltage (Jackie McLean and Blue Mitchell), and A Slice Of The Top (nice larger ensemble).

Wow I am going to check out the All-Stars recording. Milt, Horace and Blakey must be incredible together.

[JSngry]

Not boring.

[JCR1992]

Not boring.

Yes not boring but for me Lee and Billy Higgins are the standout on this tune. Hank's solo of course wasn't bad and he never is bad but I've also heard better from him. The best playing of Hank IMO is on Miles' Blackhawk albums.

[JSngry]

Hey, different strokes. For me, Hank with Miles at the Blackhawk is the most boring playing he ever did (or for that matter, that any Miles per-retirement Miles bad ever did, although In Concert will give it a good run, even if that one's a boredom springing from a lack of cohesion rather than an ability to coast at a really high level, like on the Blackhawk sessions).

Not that I believe the old, too-easy "Hank was a bad fit for Miles" canard, I mean, Hank with Miles at Carnegie Hall was on, but that Blackhawk stuff, geez, I keep trying to look at it as something more than lesser music from a great group of players, and it ain't happened yet. It's kinda like sex with a super hot chick who's putting on a show for you, looks good, feels good, she's into it at some level, sure, but the longer it goes, you notice that she's looking at the clock on the wall behind you, and then...what do you do then? Keep going, no doubt, but it doesn't feel the same now. That how the Blackhake stuff has always hit me, hot band, great act, all the right motions being gone through, but there's that matter of the clock on the wall behind you...

But that's just me. I prefer Hank the later he goes and the quirkier he gets, which by the end is for some uncomfortably quirky, or, for others, boring...I don't understand how anybody could hear something as what strikes me as bare-boned exposed-nerve bloody as "Summertime" from Breakthrough as boring, but some do. Individual perceptions are what they are. We are engaged by that with which we are engaged, eh?

[mjzee]

Not boring.

Yes not boring but for me Lee and Billy Higgins are the standout on this tune. Hank's solo of course wasn't bad and he never is bad but I've also heard better from him. The best playing of Hank IMO is on Miles' Blackhawk albums.

That's the great thing about Hank. Yes, get into it for Lee and Billy, but after you play the album a few times, you start to find Hank's solos insinuating themselves inside you. He doesn't hit you over the head at first listen, but there's a lot of things happening there.

[JSngry]

Yes, a lot.

[926am]

Hank Mobley ''Dippin''

Lee Morgan ''Cornbread'

Horace Silver ''Song for my Father''

Dexter Gordon ''Go'' (But I think ''One Step Up'' is underrated)

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

All depends where you're coming from.

Where I'm coming from - R&B - is a soul jazz perspective so the Wilkersons, Roaches, Reuben Wislons, Lonnie Smiths, Lou Donaldsons, most of the Grant Greens, Stanley Turrentines are the acme of Blue Note's work; music primarily aimed at entertaining black adults. I think the genre is underrated and, therefore, most of the recordings within it.

Conversely, I feel that the hard bop genre is overrated, and so are most of the BN recordings within it.

Somewhere in between, there's Horace Silver.

Off to one side is George Braith. Braith is his own genre. And top of it, of course. Though I've always loved his early work, I think it's true that you get more of a handle on his BN and PR albums by listening to the material he's been issuing in the last decade or so on his own label.

(Instant dismissal of the majority of the BN catalogue )

(No, that's not true. There's much to like in Hank Mobley, Dex, ... can't think of any others, sorry.)

MG

[Scott Dolan]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I find Point of Departure overrated. That's not to say it isn't a very good album, just not the revelation many make it out to be.

[Big Beat Steve]

I like your down-to-earth approach to the subject, MG!

In discussions like this I often have the impression people let themselves be guided far too often by what "one is SUPPOSED to listen to and appreciate" in order to "appreciate the magnum opus of the label/artist for its ARTISTIC value" instead of just admitting that this or that record "just doesn't cut it for me" and standing by it (after all one man's meat is another man's poison only), regardless of whether that record may have been elevated to 5-star status by somebody somewhere sometime.

But "music primarily aimed at entertaining black adults"? Be prepared for some raised eyebrows about how lofty concert artistry can possibly be dragged down to such a "gutbucket" level.

[clifford_thornton]

Agreed - it's strong, but not the be-all end-all of Hill's discography. I think a lot of the lavish praise heaped on it beyond being the only time Dolphy recorded with Hill was that for some time it was the leader's only consistently in-print CD. When I bought it in the latter half of the 1990s, in a shop in Lawrence, Kansas, it was the only title by Hill that they could order from their distributor (this was before I'd learned of Cadence). Availability often affects how an artist or a recording is seen within the canon.

[Scott Dolan]

Agreed - it's strong, but not the be-all end-all of Hill's discography. I think a lot of the lavish praise heaped on it beyond being the only time Dolphy recorded with Hill was that for some time it was the leader's only consistently in-print CD. When I bought it in the latter half of the 1990s, in a shop in Lawrence, Kansas, it was the only title by Hill that they could order from their distributor (this was before I'd learned of Cadence). Availability often affects how an artist or a recording is seen within the canon.

A very good point, but didn't it also get a crown in Penguin?

I'll note that I really like Hill quite a bit, and am a hardcore Dolphy fan. Then you look at the rest of the line up with Henderson, Dorham, Davis, and Williams, and you're thinking "slam dunk". That's a serious All-Star band if ever there were one.

But, what it ended up being was how Miles described Something Else, his sideman date with Cannonball. "A nice album".

Edited September 3, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, totally an all-star game on paper. It's a very good record but not Hill's best IMO (Black Fire is still my favorite of his BN output).

[Scott Dolan]

Agreed. Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[clifford_thornton]

The whole overrated/underrated thing is kinda tough; for me, almost all of this music is underrated by the general public, yet at the same time there were valuable musical activities that Blue Note did not document extensively (if at all). With the "hits" I tend to think they are often excellent recordings and my mood that day can greatly affect how much I'm "feeling" the music. That said, though I'm obviously a huge fan of avant-garde jazz, most of the progressive Blue Notes of the mid-60s don't really hit me very hard - Hutcherson, Hill, Rivers, Henderson, Larry Young - though I do get into the McLean/Moncur dates and the Anthony Williams records. I don't think BN documented Cecil's music correctly, but I'm glad that Conquistador and Unit Structures are there - amazing music though RvG didn't record them quite right.

The Blue Note records I find myself returning to are more along the lines of hard bop staples, Ike Quebec records, and of course non-staples like Tina Brooks and Sonny Clark. Rarely dive into Jimmy Smith (more of a Freddie Roach fan) or Lou Donaldson but their appeal and vitality is undeniable.