Name some Blue Note cds you find overrated

[JSngry]

Go & Our Man In Paris are Desert Island Dexter For me. One Flight Up & A Swingin' Affair I could live without if forced to. Dexter Calling & Doin' Alright...not Desert Island, but still dandy.

But those first two, those records ARE Dexter Gordon afaic. Even if there wasn't more before or after (and there is).

What about Gettin' Around? Embarrassing to admit, when I first read this post I mixed up GA (which I think is DG's weakest BN) and Our Man in Paris mixed up, and I was surprised you were so favorable on the album!

Oh yeah, forgot about that one...used to be one of the "rarities" in the 70s, seemed like it had one pressing, then went OOP...I was thrilled when I found a sealed copy...liked "Heartaches" a lot, learned the solo, actually, but the rest of it...I really can't remember it, so there's your answer (and mine, right?). Don't know that I've even played it since 1979 or so.

[Gheorghe]

Once I collected so much BN, but I couldn´t say I listen to all of them frequently.

Now, if I think back, I wouldn´t have needed to own all Lee Morgans from the 50´s and 60´s the "Cooker" is the best one and I keep listening to it. Or "Search of a New Land", those two are fine, the latter much better than "Sidewinder".

Same with Mobley, with Lou Donaldson, Jimmy Smith. Just 2 or 3 albums from each of them might be enough.

And I almost never listen to the "Three Sounds". That´s some kind of Oscar Peterson imitation. That kind of jazz for people who usually don´t listen to jazz.

I love Wayne Shortes "All Seein Eye", it´s much better than "Adam´s Apple".....

[Peter Friedman]

Just read through this entire thread. it is very clear that personal tastes are quite varied within this group of , what I assume are, serious jazz fans.

Here are some of my views. I like all the Dexter Gordon albums quite a bit, and all of Sonny Clark' s sessions except his standards album that is a bit weak. Blue Trane is one of my very favorite albums by John Coltrane on any label.

Early Lee Morgan is terrific. There is a freshness and enthusiastic quality to those 50's dates, and the arrangements by Golson and Gryce among others were damn good. The Lee Morgan session I do not care for is Live at The Lighthouse.

Though some are better than others, I like every one of Hank Mobley's albums.

Among the Blue Notes I do not care for are the Braith and Wilkerson albums. Also in that category are the 2 volumes of Night of the Cookers which was a huge disappointment given that I like all the musicians. The first time I listened to Something Else it disappointed me, but I soon grew to really love that album. The Johnny Griffin albums on Blue Note are nice, but I much prefer his Riverside

recordings. Didn't care for the Moncur albums and have disposed of them. I like most of Jimmy Smith's albums, but don't like Plays Fats Waller, Rockin' The Boat, Plays Pretty, I'm Movin' On, and Softly As a Summer Breeze.

i liked Wayne Shorter's early sessions such as Speak No Evil, Night Dreamer, Juju, Adam's Apple, and Schizophrenia, but NOT Odyssey Of Iska, or The All Seeing Eye. The Andrew Hill recordings are not things I play, though I do have 1 or 2 of them.

Not clear about why some don't like Joe Henderson's Mode For Joe or Page One. i like them both a lot.

I am not a fan of free jazz so avoided the Cecil Taylor. Have heard, but did not like the Ornette Coleman albums.

That is enough for now.

[Eric]

Thinking about this I am trying to carefully draw the distinction between "overrated" and "I don't like". For example, I don't like "Am I Blue" but it is hardly highly rated. Same for the "Night of the Cookers" records.

One that seems to fit the bill is "Blues Walk" by Lou Donaldson. I just don't get it - don't care for the tunes, his tone or the phrasing. I do like a couple LD records, but not the one that generally seems to be regarded as his best.

Another is "Moanin'". Nice record, no doubt - but among the last Blakey's I reach for.

"Una Mas" - seems to be highly rated. Same as the Blakey, it is fine, but my least-played of the Dorham/Henderson lps.

"Point of Departure" by Andrew Hill. Pretty clearly regarded as his classic, but give me "Black Fire" or any one of a number of the previously unreleased sessions.

This is actually a little difficult and not much fun. Would much rather discuss the underrated ones

[Gheorghe]

Now that you are talking about Ornette, Cecil Taylor and so on......that´s a big point !

When Alfred Lion started to give avant garde a try and started to record some of the most popular New Thing artists, he did it in his own manner, so when they recorded it, it was more in a way that could be understood by the public.

Like in my case: I came up listening to hardbop, it was my music that I understood, but being a teenager I felt like I might learn some more stuff to get further, more advanced in my musical knowledge.

Listening to the two Coleman albums "Golden Circle", or to Don Cherry´s "Complete Communion", or even to Cecil Taylors "Unit Structures", it was much easier for me to get into that thing, because it was one of Alfred Lion´s principles that even if it might get "far out", it got to get to a point wher it "has to schwing", like he would say.

So, for an avantgarde "newbie", like I was during that time, it was much easier to get into that stuff by listening to the albums that I have mentioned.

It was such a great time in my life, when everything was new and I was eager to learn about it. Like reading books, not only the classics, but the contemporanous authors, poetry, stuff like that....... just a wonderful period in my life, when I was eager to learn about those things, and BN sure helped me a lot during that period.....

[Leeway]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

Then I myself started to move away from BNs, into more "out" music. Gradually, BNs became less interesting to me, until I stopped listening altogether for a couple/several years. Whatever it was that locked me in originally was no longer operative. Only fairly recently have I been able to go back and listen, not as a BN fan (from fan-atic) but as a music fan. Some things still work strongly for me, especially the more "out" material. But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

It may be what we are talking about is the consensus among fans. As we move generationally further away from the generation(s) that produced the music, perspectives are bound to change. Critical consensus is usually one thing, popular consensus os usually another. All they can do is contribute to a shift in momentum, one way or another. Bottom line though is we are going to listen to what we enjoy.

[Head Man]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

Then I myself started to move away from BNs, into more "out" music. Gradually, BNs became less interesting to me, until I stopped listening altogether for a couple/several years. Whatever it was that locked me in originally was no longer operative. Only fairly recently have I been able to go back and listen, not as a BN fan (from fan-atic) but as a music fan. Some things still work strongly for me, especially the more "out" material. But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

It may be what we are talking about is the consensus among fans. As we move generationally further away from the generation(s) that produced the music, perspectives are bound to change. Critical consensus is usually one thing, popular consensus os usually another. All they can do is contribute to a shift in momentum, one way or another. Bottom line though is we are going to listen to what we enjoy.

Nicely put, Leeway.

I've gone from "playing only" to "playing occasionally" from my Blue Note collection over the years. When I first bought Blue Note albums it was still possible to see and hear most of the artists playing live, but as the years have gone by and the artists have gradually died, then I find the albums now resonate less with me. Plus, I suppose, there is so much MORE music to listen to now.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Head Man

[xybert]

I'm really getting back in to Blue Note lately, having belatedly found a love for Hard Bop. The local brick and mortars used to be loaded with Blue Notes for fairly cheap, now many are harder to come by... took them for granted, they're increasingly OOP and with the emergence of CDR on demand... stink.

[JSngry]

At some point, I think you can safely listen to any music as if it was being made by dead people, because at some point they all will be.

Similarly, at some point, I think you can safely listen to any music as if it was being made by living people, because at some point they all have been.

That only gets to be a problem if one gets too hung up on whether one is alive or not one's own self, and really, at some point, you will be either, and collectively you will be both, so...no big deal, really.

And then, what, really? Simply people dealing with what they have to deal with in the time they have to deal with it. Nothing more, nothing less. And some people, living and/or dead, will do that more...interestingly than others, depending on what it is that one finds interesting for as long as one is alive (i.e. - not yet knowingly dead) to find it.

[Guy Berger]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

...But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former.

Guy

[Leeway]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

...But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former.

Guy

That may be. Do you have any good examples of that? IIRC, in the case of many BNs, they tended to review the results as formulaic or pedestrian, so maybe did value the avant stuff higher just for being different. I know I have my own bias in that direction. But I would be interested in egregious examples of overrating the avant-garde stuff too highly.

[xybert]

I often felt that the Penguin Guides rating of a lot of albums was a bit arbitrary. The comments don't always match the stars, nor reality, but they can't all be 4 stars so lets make this one a 3 rather than a 4. Just my impression, still a good 'guide' if taken for what it is. I think the ratings are also sometimes internal to the artist or sub-genre. i.e this is a 3 star album for this guy, doesn't mean that it's inferior to a 3.5 star album from that guy. Then there are anomolies for me like how, from memory, Nefertiti and The Sorceror are both 3 star albums. Not to denigrate Lee Morgan, at all, but would you really say that The Sidewinder, a 4 star and crowned album, is 'better' than The Sorceror? I don't think you can but i think that's kind of the point.

[Leeway]

I often felt that the Penguin Guides rating of a lot of albums was a bit arbitrary. The comments don't always match the stars, nor reality, but they can't all be 4 stars so lets make this one a 3 rather than a 4. Just my impression, still a good 'guide' if taken for what it is. I think the ratings are also sometimes internal to the artist or sub-genre. i.e this is a 3 star album for this guy, doesn't mean that it's inferior to a 3.5 star album from that guy. Then there are anomolies for me like how, from memory, Nefertiti and The Sorceror are both 3 star albums. Not to denigrate Lee Morgan, at all, but would you really say that The Sidewinder, a 4 star and crowned album, is 'better' than The Sorceror? I don't think you can but i think that's kind of the point.

You can denigrate Lee Morgan if you wish; I'm not the LMDF I'm pretty ambivalent about "Sidewinder", since the money it brought in for Blue Note probably allowed the label to survive a lot longer than it might otherwise have; however, the cost was that just about every album after seemed to have at least one, maybe two "boogaloos" on it, as Alfred Lion chased another pot of gold. At the same time "Sidewinder" being the first and best of them all, does deserves recognition and you can't blame Lee for coming up with a killer tune. So Morton and Cook made their calculations and came out where they did. "Sorcerer" and "Nefertiti" are both 3.5 in the 4th edition (which is handiest to me). Rather than me try to explain, defend or castigate TPG, much better to consult the Introduction to one of the volumes for the authors' explanation of what the star ratings actually indicate and decide if it makes sense.

[sidewinder]

I often felt that the Penguin Guides rating of a lot of albums was a bit arbitrary. The comments don't always match the stars, nor reality, but they can't all be 4 stars so lets make this one a 3 rather than a 4. Just my impression, still a good 'guide' if taken for what it is. I think the ratings are also sometimes internal to the artist or sub-genre. i.e this is a 3 star album for this guy, doesn't mean that it's inferior to a 3.5 star album from that guy. Then there are anomolies for me like how, from memory, Nefertiti and The Sorceror are both 3 star albums. Not to denigrate Lee Morgan, at all, but would you really say that The Sidewinder, a 4 star and crowned album, is 'better' than The Sorceror? I don't think you can but i think that's kind of the point.

I was just listening to Lem Winchester 'Lem's Beat' and reading their 2-star review yesterday and thinking 'were they listening to the same album'?

[paul secor]

The Penguin Guides were just opinions, not gospel. They'd only have been gospel if I'd written them.

[Leeway]

The Penguin Guides were just opinions, not gospel. They'd only have been gospel if I'd written them.

That's what we would all say, or at least think, if we were as candid as you

[Guy Berger]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

...But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former.

Guy

That may be. Do you have any good examples of that? IIRC, in the case of many BNs, they tended to review the results as formulaic or pedestrian, so maybe did value the avant stuff higher just for being different. I know I have my own bias in that direction. But I would be interested in egregious examples of overrating the avant-garde stuff too highly.

Derek Bailey and Evan Parker are the first two examples that come to mind.

[Steve Reynolds]

When I was really back in Blue Note mode, before Organissimo got started and while the BNBB was going strong, I used to check out the Penguin Guide. I was often incensed, or at least puzzled, by how they awarded 2 or 2 1/2, maybe 3 on occasion to Blue Notes that seemed so great. I figured they had a bias that carried through the BN catalog.

...But now I think I see some justice in the Penguin listings. I'm not trying to justify all of their reviews, nor mount a wholesale defense of TPG, but generally their scale seems to me fairly accurate now. I doubt TPG overrated too many BNs.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former.

Guy

That may be. Do you have any good examples of that? IIRC, in the case of many BNs, they tended to review the results as formulaic or pedestrian, so maybe did value the avant stuff higher just for being different. I know I have my own bias in that direction. But I would be interested in egregious examples of overrating the avant-garde stuff too highly.

Derek Bailey and Evan Parker are the first two examples that come to mind.

Funny that I am not much of a listener to Bailey but my opinion of the Parker discs is often in line with Penguin. And over the years I have listened to Evan Parker probably more than any other saxophonist. If one gets past the sort of music he plays, their take on his music is quite measured. The reality is that he has recorded a lot of music and much of it is of a very high quality and high inspiration. It's tough when one is one of greatest saxophonists who ever lived. Sure there are some rote sessions and they rate a number of them 3 stars.

[Leeway]

Since Steve addressed the Parker aspect, I'll address the Derek Bailey. In my view, Bailey might be THE central figure in free improvisation, the person who more than anyone, including Parker and John Stevens, both of whom I hold in the highest esteem, developed the language of free improvisation. Bailey provided the syntax, the grammar, others may have provided the vocabulary. Looking at the 4th edition of TPG, they list about a dozen Bailey titles together. Half get 3, 3 get 3.5, 3 get 4. Considering that these are absolutely seminal Incus recordings, I don't think they are out of line really. The valuation that follows the star ratings is measured and astute. Of course, if one's taste doesn't run this way, that doesn't mean much, and that's what the personal listening experience is about.

[Guy Berger]

<Shrug>

To me it looks like Penguin are simply applying different grading criteria to different styles of music, with some styles and musicians benefiting from grade inflation. Anybody sufficiently motivated to calculate Bailey and/or Parker's "Penguin GPA" compared to that of Louis Armstrong's or Duke Ellington? I'm too lazy.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Guy

[StarThrower]

Maiden Voyage, Speak No Evil, and Destination Out deserve the classic album status imo.

I've been listening to Moncur's Some Other Stuff, lately, and I dig it. Recommended to fans of Tony William's BN album, Lifetime.

And Shorter plays some great stuff on this as well.

Agree with the ho hum reaction to Una Mas. It doesn't sound particularly inspired. Kenny Dorham did better stuff on other labels.

Never cared for Sidewinder, either.

[AmirBagachelles]

Anything by Horace Silver except Cape Verdean Blues.

[Rooster_Ties]

Anything by Horace Silver except Cape Verdean Blues.

"The Jody Grind" is top drawer in my book.

[Steve Reynolds]

Is Mobley's Peckin' Time well regarded?

To my ears, a very humdrum rote session with a substandard Charli Persip on drums

And I've become a big admirer of Mobley - especially the classic dates like Workout, Roll Call and Soul Station

I find his phrasing, tone and melodic sense more engaging than Coltrane's late 50's playing and even prefer him lately over Rollins of that era or Dexter.

I really need to re-aquire the Blackhawk sessions with Miles

Back to the blue notes, back in the day, I really ha a hard time with the later Lee Morgan blue notes. I found them formulaic and uninspiring.

[JSngry]

Anything by Horace Silver except Cape Verdean Blues.

"The Jody Grind" is top drawer in my book.

Further Explorations is the real sleeper, imo..."Moon Rays" is an exquisite round trip of a ride. Not so much the tune itself (nice, but...), but the arrangement, the pacing, the dynamics, the whole group thing. You don't hear too much jazz of any kind that rolls it around like that in just one piece.

6 Pieces too, that one is a blast from start to finish, but if I had to be stuck for a couple of days listening to the intro to "Enchantment", I think I'd survive it jsut fine.

Again, the tune is pretty "obvious" in it's math, but here again, flavor is there to be extracted, and it's all good like that.