Name some Blue Note cds you find overrated

[Scott Dolan]

As for Three for Shepp, I think the black/red did get more than one run because a whole bunch of them got assembled with the inner gatefold slick (liners) upside down!

What an ingenious way to ensure future record sales!

[JSngry]

Record club editions! Fantastic!

Do you know which record club they were made for? The "big three" I remember were Columbia, RCA, & Capitol. A little later, Record Club Of America (no obligation! EVER!). Come to think of it, Record Club Of America was where I got my first Trane record, Transition...funky ass pressing on the second side of it too, but that's ok, I only played Side 1 anyway.

Would also like to know how many of those record club editions actually got ordered vs how many were pressed...that's an economic issue that has nothing to do with music...again, write-offs...

[clifford_thornton]

I can't remember who was doing the Impulse record club editions in the '60s. White spine with red print, and non-Impulse catalog numbers. Non-gloss gatefolds.

I also saw a Rudd with a glossy gatefold sleeve and a yellow label with black print that was definitely some sort of record club mongrel. It was very odd.

Edited September 4, 2014 by clifford_thornton

[JSngry]

Funky.

[clifford_thornton]

Point being that there were numerous ways to acquire this music over the course of a decade (1967-1977) if you wanted to get your hands dirty, and the labels kept manufacturing it.

As for Conquistador, I've seen mono and stereo Liberty pressings, blue label UA pressings, and Japanese issues. Unit Structures: mono/stereo "New York USA," stereo Liberty with a couple of different label shades, blue label UAs, not to mention King and Toshiba Japanese reissues.

Oh yeah, and the Burton Greene on Columbia: white label promo and regular two-eye, as well as Dutch and English CBS and Japanese CBS/Sony.

[JSngry]

Yeah, my Conquistador is a "black note" UA, finally found it used for four bucks. It stayed in print, just wasn't stocked nearly as readily, at least not in these parts. Most places I looked in would have Unit Structures, Silent Tongues, and, maybe, Looking Ahead. I think maybe they liked the cover better on Unit Structures. Can't blame them for that! Always seemed like when I was in the mood for Conquistador, it was not on the shelves, and when I wasn't, it was. Go figure.

The key to what you say is "if you wanted to get your hands dirty"...not everything stayed in print, and not all rack-jobbers kept the same inventory. You had to hunt, as you know, in some unlikely places. Some "special orders" from a local mom and pop would take, like 24 hours, some would take 2-3 weeks, and some never came in at all. No way to predict it either, I special ordered that Bird Onyx LP from some car stereo place in Longview, Texas across the street from the liquor store where I worked one summer, they also "sold records" and had a sign, "Don't See It? We Can get It". I mean this place was about the size of a hot dog stand, and they got it in, like, overnight, less than 24 hours. What kind of a rack jobber that services hot dog stand-sized car stereo places in Longview, Tx is gonna have Onyx inventory on hand (in 1974!) to hot-shot over to the store? That one always WTF?-ed me, still does.

Something like New York Is Now, I've only seen first pressings of that, and I got mine in a cutout bin, a remnant of the Liberty Purge.

Don't know how or why, bookeeping manuver or actual optimistic sales projection (thre's an actual "business expense" angle to this that only somebody who's actually done it, like chuck, can fully appreciate), but Impulse! seemed to be good about not deleting catalog for a very long time. Also not sure if everything was re-ran equally, but again, investment in deep catalog can pay off in quantity and over time, or used to, if you have the resources to stay afloat long enough. As can getting your hands dirty.

[clifford_thornton]

Black-note Transamerica - yeah, not surprised that exists. I think you're right about Impulse vs BN but I wasn't there so only know this stuff through digging in the bins.

My copy of NY Is Now is a blue label UA. Wish it was a Liberty. It's all weird and you're right, regional stock preferences (not to mention greedy record store clerks) in the pre-pre-pre-Internet age made one's experience of what was findable quite variable.

[JSngry]

Black-note Transamerica? My label says United Artists (cover says Liberty, of course)...I've got some other things that say Transamerica, but this isn't one of them. Another variance, perhaps?

That's interesting about the blue label NYIN, gotta be a story there, it and Love Call didn't hang on too long, relatively speaking...my Love Call is an old school Blue Note Liberty label, but the back cover says it all - "Blue Note Records - Entertainment From Transamerica Corporation". And it's a cutout!

[clifford_thornton]

Transamerica owned UA at that point, IIRC.

Almost forgot, on the subject of both underrated and avant-garde, the Eddie Gale Blue Note records. Very good and very strange albums, especially in the context of Blue Note. Quite rare too, at least in their original incarnation.

[JSngry]

Especially unusual as post-Lion BNs. Wolff is credited as producer on Ghetto Music, with no producer being listed on Black Rhythm Happening (which is some more "Entertainment From Transamerica Corporation"). Wolff was doing mostly (but not only) the Lonnie Smith/Grant Green/Lou Donaldson-type stuff, but would likely have met/known Gale from Unit Structures...and he did take up with Ornette after Lion left. But I've heard it said more than once that his heart was in the organ band/neighborhood bar type stuff, that was he really was really feeling.

Still, yeah, has Gale ever told the story of how he got that deal? Gotta be a story there. Lots of people on those two records, lots of people.

[clifford_thornton]

ep1str0phy knows Gale and may know the story.

[JSngry]

Would love to hear it!

[Scott Dolan]

I'd normally say that you two need to get a room, but this conversation has actually been quite informative and entertaining.

So, please carry on!

Seriously...you both are throwing down some serious minutiae, but it provides me (and I'm hoping many others) some really excellent knowledge to draw from in the future.

And yes, Jim. This is genuine commentary. Even though I think you're a loon at times (as you do I), I do respect your overall knowledge when it comes to Jazz.

Going to listen to the Grachan Moncur album later this evening.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[clifford_thornton]

I've had a shit time at work this year, so this is my attempt at solace!

[JSngry]

Yeah, I've had a headache all day long...work has been a pain here as well, so this is constructive avoidance.

Here's a thought - Eddie Gale on Liberty-Era Blue Note vs Alan Shorter on MGM-era Verve, Frances Wolff vs Esmond Edwards, the battle of the avant-garde trumpeters...what kind of pissing match was that? Who got there first, and who said, oh shit, they got X, I better go get Y to keep up? I'll see your Ghetto Music and raise you an Orgasm! HA - I got a Black Rhythm Happening! AAAAARGH, You got me there, CURSES!

I jest, of course, becuase, well...it's funny to think about it in those terms. Most times a record's origins are somewhat obviously traceable, even if only by reverse engineering the known networking of all concerned. But those two guys, those two producers, those two lables, all in about the same timeframe...wow. The mind reels...I mean, ok Esmond Edwards surely knew Wayne & Alan both, but jeez, that does not explain Orgasm, much less Orgasm on Verve. The Eddie Gale BNs are perfectly logical presentations by comparison!

[clifford_thornton]

I wonder which one came first in terms of release dates? I'd assume around the same time.

My UK Polydor/Verve edition of the Shorter, from 1969, has an alternate sleeve image and is titled Parabolic. In the notes (by Richard Williams), it is mentioned that this was the first release of the material, though I thought for sure there was a deep-groove Verve stateside that preceded it. Also, I was under the impression that much of Orgasm/Parabolic was written in the early 1960s without much of an ear towards Ornette's music.

Edited September 5, 2014 by clifford_thornton

[JSngry]

I've got the US Verve issue (found used in Fort Smith, Arkansas of all places ca. 1988)...sometimes you wish records could talk, because there's got to be some kind of a story there), but not a deep-groove.

Check it out...you might want to look at this, if you don't already know it (I didn't): http://books.google.com/books?id=0TkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=Parabolic+alan+shorter&source=bl&ots=xALUPTOed9&sig=SccN-ktu3SQYSZgKLtuJxiYTU5c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mAYJVP7zDoGoyAT4gYKwBw&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Parabolic%20alan%20shorter&f=false

That's pretty much an alternative history of the record right there, true or false. Whole nother recording date, wow, and totally contradicted by the CD issue (which contains that for me pretty incredible story about Rashied Ali getting into it with Esmond Edwards). The idea that it was never supposed to be issued but a few copies found their way into the bargain bins fits with Chuck asking Bill Fenohr if any copies existed without a DJ sticker on them, becuase he never saw one without one (this was on Board Krypton, iirc). Bill said, no, he had the slicks for it, so it was inteneded to be released, anyway, they were taking orders for it. But how many orders he filled for it, I don't remember, or even if he mentioned filling any. Makes you wonder if there was so much disinterest that Verve dumped their pressings immediately w/o anything getting into stores. My copy does not have the DJ sticker, but it does have a nice clean round hole punched out of the lower left cover. So make of that what you will.

It's a mysterious record, but I will take any Alan Shorter there is. I loved that guy's work, the little of it there was.

Too bad he lost the Publicity Wars to Eddie Gale... :alien:

[clifford_thornton]

Ah Ron Welburn, Bill D spoke very, very highly of him. Great piece.

My Polydor copy doesn't list a recording date at all; the US pressing seems to list '68 (though that could be wrong - you'd have to see the session logs I guess). I've definitely seen non-promo, non-deletion copies around but it's not easy to find.

Edited September 5, 2014 by clifford_thornton

[charlesp]

Very thought-provoking discussion. Compared to most (but certainly not all) popular of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century pop recordings, no Blue Note recordings are "overrated" - so I interpret the gist of the question as "which Blue Note recordings enjoy critical acclaim that you just don't dig?". The last several days of posts include a very thorough discussion of Blue Note's inside/outside foray in the mid-1960's - Ornette, Cecil, Hill, Dolphy, Hutcherson, Rivers, Moncur, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Jackie McClean's reaction to Ornette, etc. - that happens to be my favorite stuff on Blue Note - but all that reveals is my preferences....(I will be re-investigating Love Call hased on Jim's impassioned discussion). but what about the hard bop and soul Blue Notes?

If I approach the question as "What if you had to limit the recordings that you had to live with to 1000 recordings ?", I would have to limit the Blue Notes to no more than 100 - so a healthy dose of Bechet, all of Monk's Blue Notes, all of Herbie Nichols, considerable Sonny Clark and Tina Brooks, all of Wayne and Ornette, Anthony Williams, some Cassandra Wilson (guilty pleasure).....it doesn't take long to get to 100 records.

Why only 10% Blue Note? I want all of the nessa catalog, a considerable # of India Navigation, Black Saint and Soul Notes, almost everything John Carter and Bobby Bradford recorded together, all of Ornette's Atlantics, Monk's Columbias, a heathy dose of Ellington, Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans, some Louis, some Billie, some Evan Parker...some William Parker, a few ECM's - Art Ensemble, Conference of the Birds, Kenny Wheeler, Charles Lloyd ... And at least 100 (maybe of few more) Steve Lacy records....1000 goes fast!!!

Edited September 5, 2014 by charlesp

[Guy Berger]

What it was, I think, was Lion recognizing that these were proven artists with something significant to say within the jazz tradition, and he wanted them documented on his label. Call it an ego move or a vanity move if you want, that's not necessarily wrong (either factually or "morally") best as I can tell, but Lion approached his label the same way Goddard Lieberson did at Columbia - one eye on moving the product, one eye on builing a meaningful cultural legacy, and quite often/generally using different artists for each end. Good thing he had two eyes!

Sorry, but I can't buy that even a little. There has never been a record executive in history that ran a multi-million dollar company that said "fuck money, I've got a legacy to build!"

Alfred was no fool, and by the mid 60's it was pretty clear the direction Jazz had moved in. The Three Sounds comparison is trite at best. There were outliers, but AG was the main attraction.

You might as well have refused to sign a Hair Metal band in the 80's while continuing to look for the next Jim Croce.

Empirical evidence supports Jim here. In the pre-1967 era, if BN had wanted to simply sell more jazz records, then (assuming some sort of constraint on production resources), they would have released a lot more soul jazz and less avant-garde stuff. Avant-garde jazz (or inside/outside music) was perhaps the main attraction in terms of critical response (indeed, an interesting discussion would be the long-running critical discomfort with soul jazz), but not in terms of $$$$. There's a reason why Jimmy Smith, Grant Green, Stanley Turrentine, the Three Sounds made so many frickin records.

No reason to pretend that AL/BN ever said "fuck money", but pretty clearly the more commercial stuff subsidized the more esoteric music.

[sidewinder]

Ah Ron Welburn, Bill D spoke very, very highly of him. Great piece.

My Polydor copy doesn't list a recording date at all; the US pressing seems to list '68 (though that could be wrong - you'd have to see the session logs I guess). I've definitely seen non-promo, non-deletion copies around but it's not easy to find.

I've yet to see one of those 'Parabolics' over here. All of the copies must have been sold in the US !

[Scott Dolan]

Avant-garde jazz (or inside/outside music) was perhaps the main attraction in terms of critical response...

And here you accidentally made my point for me.

That is what is called "getting in on the ground floor". Great record executives try to stay ahead of trends, or at least recognize them as quickly as possible. When the critics are lauding, you best move your ass.

In other words, if this had simply stayed an underground thing that the critics ignored (or if they had all gone down the John Tynan rabbit hole), Alfred Lion wouldn't have been recording it just because he thought it was important to document. That's just a silly Wikipedia quote.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

David Rosenthal's book 'Hard bop' had some interesting money numbers about Blue Note albums. Where from, dunno, but I doubt if he made 'em up.

The average first year sales (and BNs sold for decades) of hard bop LPs were about 7,000.

The usual break-even point for an album was sales of 2,500.

Blue Note were probably making money on pretty near everything they put out. Of course, as Guy says, they could have made more by making more soul jazz albums (or maybe not - there were cashflow problems arising from having to sell too big a proportion of your output to firms who wouldn't pay you until the NEXT hit came along, so maybe that was why they restricted the numbers).

MG

[sidewinder]

Ah Ron Welburn, Bill D spoke very, very highly of him. Great piece.

My Polydor copy doesn't list a recording date at all; the US pressing seems to list '68 (though that could be wrong - you'd have to see the session logs I guess). I've definitely seen non-promo, non-deletion copies around but it's not easy to find.

Just thinking again about this - it feels like the incentive to record and put out Alan Shorter was more a Polydor/Polygram thing than Verve. At that time I think that the European Verve imprints were Polygram pressings. Thinking about it at the time, Polygram here in the UK were linked up with Marmalade, who were putting out SME, John McLaughlin and (a bit later) Clyne/Carr so Alan Shorter on Verve/Polygram doesn't feel too outlandish.

Having said that, around the same time in the US verve were putting out left-field things like Marvin Stamm 'Machinations' so maybe they were testing the waters somewhat.

Edited September 5, 2014 by sidewinder

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And, to continue with the finance bit, avant garde jazz albums could be small hit albums, too. Not many and not until 1967, but....

Nov 67 John Coltrane - Expression 3 wks on pop chart

Aug 69 Pharoah Sanders - Karma 4 wks pop., 8 wks R&B

May 70 Pharoah Sanders - Jewels of thought 2 wks R&B

Jul 71 Pharoah Sanders - Thembi 3 wks pop

Nov 71 Alice Coltrane - Universal consciousness 2 wks pop

Nov 71 John Coltrane - Sun ship 3 wks pop

Oct 74 Alice Coltrane - Illuminations 8 wks pop, 7 wks R&B

Apr 78 Pharoah Sanders - Love will find a way 5 wks pop, 10 wks R&B

(I don't know the last 2 - were they AG albums?)

Not much, but they have to hide a much larger number of albums that weren't hits but which enabled people to recognise something or other in the albums that WERE hits.

I'm very inclined to think that avant garde jazz wasn't ever thought about as a tax write-off for a short period of time, anyway.

MG