Name some Blue Note cds you find overrated

[Big Beat Steve]

I like your down-to-earth approach to the subject, MG!

In discussions like this I often have the impression people let themselves be guided far too often by what "one is SUPPOSED to listen to and appreciate" in order to "appreciate the magnum opus of the label/artist for its ARTISTIC value" instead of just admitting that this or that record "just doesn't cut it for me" and standing by it (after all one man's meat is another man's poison only), regardless of whether that record may have been elevated to 5-star status by somebody somewhere sometime.

But "music primarily aimed at entertaining black adults"? Be prepared for some raised eyebrows about how lofty concert artistry can possibly be dragged down to such a "gutbucket" level.

[clifford_thornton]

Agreed - it's strong, but not the be-all end-all of Hill's discography. I think a lot of the lavish praise heaped on it beyond being the only time Dolphy recorded with Hill was that for some time it was the leader's only consistently in-print CD. When I bought it in the latter half of the 1990s, in a shop in Lawrence, Kansas, it was the only title by Hill that they could order from their distributor (this was before I'd learned of Cadence). Availability often affects how an artist or a recording is seen within the canon.

[Scott Dolan]

Agreed - it's strong, but not the be-all end-all of Hill's discography. I think a lot of the lavish praise heaped on it beyond being the only time Dolphy recorded with Hill was that for some time it was the leader's only consistently in-print CD. When I bought it in the latter half of the 1990s, in a shop in Lawrence, Kansas, it was the only title by Hill that they could order from their distributor (this was before I'd learned of Cadence). Availability often affects how an artist or a recording is seen within the canon.

A very good point, but didn't it also get a crown in Penguin?

I'll note that I really like Hill quite a bit, and am a hardcore Dolphy fan. Then you look at the rest of the line up with Henderson, Dorham, Davis, and Williams, and you're thinking "slam dunk". That's a serious All-Star band if ever there were one.

But, what it ended up being was how Miles described Something Else, his sideman date with Cannonball. "A nice album".

Edited September 3, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, totally an all-star game on paper. It's a very good record but not Hill's best IMO (Black Fire is still my favorite of his BN output).

[Scott Dolan]

Agreed. Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[clifford_thornton]

The whole overrated/underrated thing is kinda tough; for me, almost all of this music is underrated by the general public, yet at the same time there were valuable musical activities that Blue Note did not document extensively (if at all). With the "hits" I tend to think they are often excellent recordings and my mood that day can greatly affect how much I'm "feeling" the music. That said, though I'm obviously a huge fan of avant-garde jazz, most of the progressive Blue Notes of the mid-60s don't really hit me very hard - Hutcherson, Hill, Rivers, Henderson, Larry Young - though I do get into the McLean/Moncur dates and the Anthony Williams records. I don't think BN documented Cecil's music correctly, but I'm glad that Conquistador and Unit Structures are there - amazing music though RvG didn't record them quite right.

The Blue Note records I find myself returning to are more along the lines of hard bop staples, Ike Quebec records, and of course non-staples like Tina Brooks and Sonny Clark. Rarely dive into Jimmy Smith (more of a Freddie Roach fan) or Lou Donaldson but their appeal and vitality is undeniable.

[Scott Dolan]

So who were you AG artists of choice from that era, Clifford? Trane, Dolphy, Ornette, that kind of thing?

I do agree that particular genre wasn't a strong suit for Blue Note.

[clifford_thornton]

Of the mid-60s (cutoff say 1968) Bill Dixon and his circle, Albert Ayler, Ornette, Cecil, Frank Wright, Sunny Murray, Paul Bley, Archie Shepp, the early AACM catalog... and of course lots of European musicians who wouldn't be particularly relevant here.

The Gyllen Cirkeln recordings of Ornette's trio are fabulous; I'd somehow spaced out for a moment that those were in the BN catalog. I like the Don Cherry records but feel he did better work with the Swedish/Turkish crew (they were perhaps more under his "sway") and I also think that live recordings captured the environment of his suites better than the RvG studios, ramshackle thought they might be.

[Homefromtheforest]

Hmmm...I'd have to disagree about the Don Cherry BNs, but only because I think "complete communion" is friggin amazing and in my opinion one of his best from that mid 60s era. I wish "live in Ankara" was recorded better - for me the poor fidelity weighs down that album. The other record with Bothen, etc is better but a different phase of Cherry's output including the later double LP on Caprice.

[Homefromtheforest]

In particular in think Ed Blackwell puts on a clinic on "complete communion"

[JSngry]

I love the Ornette BN records with Dewey, JG, and Elvin. Not sure how "perfect" thay are, probably anything but, but that's love for ya'.

[Clunky]

I love the Ornette BN records with Dewey, JG, and Elvin. Not sure how "perfect" thay are, probably anything but, but that's love for ya'.

I love Love Call too. It was one of the first I heard of his so that might explain my partiality.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

But "music primarily aimed at entertaining black adults"? Be prepared for some raised eyebrows about how lofty concert artistry can possibly be dragged down to such a "gutbucket" level.

It's soul jazz which is 'primarily aimed at entertaining black adults' and it wasn't my intention to express a view that there was lofty concert artistry in any of the live soul jazz albums I've come across, which I feel is music to accompany the party. It's a pity none of those live albums include material such as 'Happy birthday to you'. That would be more authentic (By the way, that's how Bob Porter defines - perhaps too tight a word for what he means - soul jazz. I don't disagree; I seldom disagree with Bob Porter on soul jazz issues )

MG

[Scott Dolan]

Of the mid-60s (cutoff say 1968) Bill Dixon and his circle, Albert Ayler, Ornette, Cecil, Frank Wright, Sunny Murray, Paul Bley, Archie Shepp, the early AACM catalog... and of course lots of European musicians who wouldn't be particularly relevant here.

The Gyllen Cirkeln recordings of Ornette's trio are fabulous; I'd somehow spaced out for a moment that those were in the BN catalog. I like the Don Cherry records but feel he did better work with the Swedish/Turkish crew (they were perhaps more under his "sway") and I also think that live recordings captured the environment of his suites better than the RvG studios, ramshackle thought they might be.

Ah, OK. Sounds like you and I have incredibly similar tastes when it comes to 60's AG. Though, I never have gotten into the European artists. Most of them tend to take it much further than I'm comfortable listening to. I appreciate the talent, just can't get with what they were playing.

And Spiritual Unity is arguably the best AG album to come out of that era. If not the best of any era, IMO. That's one "must hear" album that did NOT disappoint!

I love the Ornette BN records with Dewey, JG, and Elvin. Not sure how "perfect" thay are, probably anything but, but that's love for ya'.

I agree with this.

I think New York Is Now is just a fantastic album! Dewey is blowing some really nasty shit on that one.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[clifford_thornton]

I love the Ornette BN records with Dewey, JG, and Elvin. Not sure how "perfect" thay are, probably anything but, but that's love for ya'.

I love Love Call too. It was one of the first I heard of his so that might explain my partiality.

Yeah, they are very good, just not the Ornette records I - personally - grab first.

Complete Communion is a gas, though I find myself digging into the record with Berger, Jenny-Clark and Aldo Romano more regularly. Even though I don't like the mastering on those three volumes that ESP released several years ago, it must've been fun to watch the quintet (Bo Stief in for J-F Jenny-Clark) in action. Ankara is cool, though I was actually referring to material from a year or two earlier that has circulated, with Maffy Falay and Bernt Rosengren's outfits (among others). And of course the fact that the GL Unit was essentially a workshop orchestra for Don Cherry's music just makes the mouth water...

[Scott Dolan]

I love the Ornette BN records with Dewey, JG, and Elvin. Not sure how "perfect" thay are, probably anything but, but that's love for ya'.

I love Love Call too. It was one of the first I heard of his so that might explain my partiality.

Yeah, they are very good, just not the Ornette records I - personally - grab first.

Complete Communion is a gas, though I find myself digging into the record with Berger, Jenny-Clark and Aldo Romano more regularly. Even though I don't like the mastering on those three volumes that ESP released several years ago, it must've been fun to watch the quintet (Bo Stief in for J-F Jenny-Clark) in action. Ankara is cool, though I was actually referring to material from a year or two earlier that has circulated, with Maffy Falay and Bernt Rosengren's outfits (among others). And of course the fact that the GL Unit was essentially a workshop orchestra for Don Cherry's music just makes the mouth water...

How would you compare Ornette's Blue Notes with the Atlantics? While the Blue Notes may be more "interesting" (can't think of a better term), the Atlantic dates are just more cohesive.

Love Call, the Golden Circle dates, and New York Is Now really broke away from the Atlantic dates, but man, when you spin something like Twins, or This Is Our Music, or free Jazz, there's just something "there" that isn't present in the Blue Notes. What the "there" is, I'm not entirely sure.

I guess it's like comparing the classic Coltrane Quartet to his late period stuff with Sanders and Ali. The latter certainly breaks away, but the former seemed more a definitive statement. If that makes any sense.

[clifford_thornton]

It seems to me - and it's been a while since I've listened to the quartet with Dewey - that those recordings have a bit less Parkeriana in them, even compared to the Gyllen Cirkeln records or (especially) the ESP, and they feel less bright. They are a bit more diffuse, especially as I don't think Elvin and Garrison, as great as they are, necessarily lock into Ornette's compositions the way that Haden and Higgins or Blackwell do, or Izenzon and Moffett. So the rhythmic aspect seems heavier and maybe a bit more syrupy sometimes. When I think about it, the sessions with Dewey that I enjoy seem to include either Blackwell or Denardo who are part of Ornette's conception from the get-go.

[Scott Dolan]

It seems to me - and it's been a while since I've listened to the quartet with Dewey - that those recordings have a bit less Parkeriana in them, even compared to the Gyllen Cirkeln records or (especially) the ESP, and they feel less bright. They are a bit more diffuse, especially as I don't think Elvin and Garrison, as great as they are, necessarily lock into Ornette's compositions the way that Haden and Higgins or Blackwell do, or Izenzon and Moffett. So the rhythmic aspect seems heavier and maybe a bit more syrupy sometimes. When I think about it, the sessions with Dewey that I enjoy seem to include either Blackwell or Denardo who are part of Ornette's conception from the get-go.

Hmmm...

That's a really interesting thought.

Been a long time since I've really sat down with any of it, but do you think/are you saying that Jones (and Moffett, by implication, contrary to what you stated) may have been trying to push the envelope more than either Higgins or Blackwell? In other words, taking Ornette out of his realm? It seemed as though both Higgins and Blackwell (and Haden, I guess) were still employing some kind of hybrid Swing/Bebop mode that allowed Coleman and Cherry to solidify the approach they were going after, whereas Jones and Garrison had "moved past" that particularly rigid approach.

Getting a little in over my head having not revisited this material in many years, but if nothing else, I've got a ton of great music to revisit now that we've had this conversation!

[JSngry]

On CD, everything was jiggled around, but on LP, New York Is Now was mostly all about Ornette's "let's improvise on the tempo" trip and Love Call had the "swingers". As a result, the former has Elvin stepping all over his dick, out of his comfort zone, and the latter doesn't. Again, the CDs combine the material differently than the LPs, so the impression the create is a different one, perhaps, than the LPs. But the LP of Love Call...whooo-WHEEEE!

As far as Elvin stepping on his dick on NYIN, I love it, becuase I love Elvin period, and you can learn a lot about what makes a guy really tick by observing what happens when he's trying to tick but isn't quite getting there. He's trying to variate those tempos, he's really trying, but poor guy, that's just not what he did, or who he was. And when not asked to do that "thing", geez, you can feel the rhythmical sigh of relief.

Otherwise, I still can get angry about what the CD does to "We Now Interrupt For A Commercial"...that's not what that piece was. No matter what the reissue board of directors thought about it, they corrupted it in a most fundamental manner, so boo-hiss-BOOGERS on them for that. Besides, the inside photos on the NYIN cover were gorgeous, bright-colory affairs, and they have vanished in the CD incarnation. So my advise is to, if you really care enough to care enough, get those two on LPs, not for whatever sonic debate there might be to be had, but just to get the original presentational impacts. In this case, they are significantly different.

But Ornette/Dewey/Haden/Blackwell...has that Trio Paris Concert thing ever been reissued, or did Ornette put the kibosh on that? All I have is a cassette dub that I'm afraid to play any more... That's one long stretch of pure zone right there, you can drop the needle anywhere on the four sides (or since it's a cassette, two sides, and FF/REW) and it all sounds the same, and I mean that in the best possible way.

BN "avant garde"...that's a trick subject (and a subjective one too...). They were not ESP or even Impulse!, but they weren't trying to be, really. They weren't there for the guys who were "starting their journey on the other side", so to speak, so, no, that's not there. But - Unit Structures was an incredibly important record becuase it was the first real "presentation" of Cecil's cellular method of structuring his music, which he still uses today. Maybe that's not clear, or even relevant, today, but..just sayin'. You look at what he had released up until then, and whoa, quantum leap. The disagreements are only possible with the gift of retrospect. Conquistador is the Cecil Taylor Quiet Storm record, so I'm thankful for that as well, becuase me and my lady, you know, we like a little jazz between the sheets, if you know what I'm sayin'.

Otherwise..how do you make a better Dialogue-type album than Dialogue? In terms of inputs &objectives relative to outcome, I don't see how you do? Now, sure, you could make different records, but with those people, why would you? Would you wnat to hear, say, an album of Joe Chambers material on ESP? Or Marion Brown on Blue Note? Or The All-Seeing Eye on Impulse!? Not really?

Different portions of the spectrum, that's all. Terms like "avant-garde", "free jazz", etc./...useful, but only up to the point to where they clarify rather than distract. Bobby Hutcherson vs Karl Berger...two different people, two different stories, two different worlds, really, and each beautiful in their own way on their own terms. But - two different worlds existing in the same world. don't ask me to choose, becuase I won't!

On, and Andrew Hill? POD has that "stillness" that comes from its planned "formatlity", so there is that (and a lot of people will go for that, it is not an unattractive quality, see Claude Thornhill), and Black Fire is of course a serious MF, but, for me, my turntable plays Andrew!!! more than any of them. Gilmore, Hutch, Davis, and Joe Chambers...it feels like a working band, although I doubt it was. The bobbing/weaving/push-pulling is about as organic as it ever got on an Andrew Hill record, and for that, I look at Gilmore with a gaze of perpetual grinning happiness.

[Scott Dolan]

BN "avant garde"...that's a trick subject (and a subjective one too...). They were not ESP or even Impulse!, but they weren't trying to be, really.

Perhaps.

I don't disagree with your summation, but Blue Note did seem to make some last ditch efforts, did they not?

Andrew Hill, Cecil Taylor, Eric Dolphy, and most importantly, Sam Rivers.

No, they certainly weren't "trying to be" Impulse! or ESP, but they were at least trying to stay in the game at the time.

Either way, they lived to have the last laugh.

Norah Jones says hello...

[paul secor]

In particular in think Ed Blackwell puts on a clinic on "complete communion"

Total agreement here.

[JSngry]

Hill, Dolphy, and Rivers were all coming from the inside going out, not just in terms of energy, but in terms of background and training. Even Cecil had such a strong formal conception going, his was "energy music" as a result of the execution of some very definite structures. Compare that to the "New Thing" players, very few of them had the degree of "formality" in their background that the BN guys of the time did. So it was going to be a different music, at least if it was going to be honest music, which I think - in all cases - that it was.

"Last ditch" seems kind of backwards to me in terms of them opening the label up for the already running streams to flow in different directions. You don't dig a ditch for a river, a river goes where it wants to go, the question is, are you going to swim, drown, or just move to higher/drier ground. Classical tonality/primal blues...no need to abandon either ship upon the identification of the other.

You also gotta look at the label being sold when it was. After the Liberty deal, things changed a lot. You got the two Eddie Gale sides, but...different label, already, almost immediately. Even the Andrew Hill records were different. Wayne...was Wayne. Schizophrenia followed by Super Nova...hello Duke Pearson! but that was a different type of Avant-Garde, already. There's really no such thing as "the" Avant-Garde except in marketing...it's really a state of mind, not any one "style".

Ok, if you look at it like must be either/or, then, ok, that's one thing. But music doesn't really work like that. Time doesn't work like that, ya' know? Lots of things happen in the same time/space, and different speeds existing in the same space are inevitable. Hell, I'll even say that they're desireable. If everything is moving at the same speed, how can you sense motion?

[Scott Dolan]

"Inside going out".

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

Were either Eric or Sam ever "inside"? I suppose you can say the rhythm sections they played over were.

I get your overall point, I'm just not sure that I agree with it.

[JSngry]

Have you heard Eric with Roy Porter (or, even, with Chico Hamilton early on)? Sam held a gig with T-Bone Walker (and reveals it pretty strongly on that 1961 Tadd Dameron BN cut). Andrew's Warwick album?

Yes, they were all very "inside" at one point. They started playing bebop, the same as most everybody else their age!

[clifford_thornton]

Thanks for your observations Jim.

Probably too much time spent with other weird shit and not enough with the "classics" lately so I need to go back and listen to some of these albums again that I'd logged heavy listening hours with years ago.

My thoughts on Complete Communion have long been that it's a beautiful record but misses some of the rawness that I appreciate in a number of renditions of that material - that lickety-split ragged charm running through Togetherness, for example. But Blackwell sounds amazing there and yes, I need to revisit.

Unit Structures and Conquistador were very important both for Cecil and for his audience, such as it was at the time. They capture a world of improvisation and organization in concise hints that was more fully explored but rarely heard live. I'm told that Cecil also got paid more for these records than his previous dates, and they were pretty easily available to the student of his music. However, I've also been told that Cecil and other members of the group had issue with how they were recorded, and that RvG's mike placement was very "off" and could not capture the essence of what the ensemble was really trying to do. Alan Silva has said this on a number of occasions - that the dynamic range of the group was flattened out. It makes sense, though what we have is what we have - and the fidelity on 4237 and 4260 are far better than what he might've got from an ESP recording (Alderson and Scholtze both have their pluses). Not to mention the music is superb...

Certainly BN had a "brand aesthetic" that went from jackets to liners to the way in which recordings were captured. The same could be said for Impulse and ESP. Love a lot of ESP records but their creative fidelity and pressing issues didn't do anyone any real favors (charming though the inconsistencies might be).

Agreed about NYIN vs Love Call. Paris Concert is not legitimately on CD - I have the Japanese LP set, which sounds great though was completely unauthorized from what I gather.