sjarrell Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I just picked up a handful of bargain BN wax, all Liberties, but 1st press I think. The earliest is a copy of Rough'n'Tumble, which says Liberty on jacket but has an NY USA Label. Next is Stick-Up, which says Liberty everywhere, and Like Someone in Love (didn't realize that session was held back for so long) which is also Liberty everywhere. So which BNLP had the first Liberty Jacket, and which had the first Liberty label? Anyone? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 From what I can find on this site: http://www.gokudo.co.jp/Record/BlueNote4/index.htm this seems to be the first one that had the new logo on the cover: But I don't think that was the first one released under the Liberty regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) According to this site, Duke Pearson's SWEET HONEY BEE (4252) was the last of the original BN's, which would mean the initial release of a first pressing Liberty LP was 4253- Grant Green's STREET OF DREAMS. I don't know when they began using the Liberty label and jacket on earlier titles (they would have been using up the existing stock of older materials as well). In other words, I don't know if anybody really knows the answer to your question, unless you're talking about what was the initial "first pressing". Edited January 21, 2005 by Jim R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 For that matter, what's the deal w/the gatefold cover to THE JODY GRIND? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjarrell Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I dunno, but Cape Verdean Blues was pre-liberty, Jody Grind post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 You lost me there. Post what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjarrell Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Post liberty take-over. I had a vinyl copy at one point and it was a property of Liberty issue. I think it started off that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 But THE JODY GRIND was 4250. Maybe what's confusing things is catalog numbers vs actual release dates. I'm no expert, I'm just trying to supply what info I can. I know that a lot of "collectors"- many of whom care more about label and jacket details than music (and I'm not aiming that at anybody here)- try to make a science of this kind of stuff. In many cases, it's not an exact science... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Here's another BN info site. I notice that they take a scholarly approach, but don't attempt to state what the earliest release was on each version of the BN label. http://ronpenndorf.com/labelography.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 The records were NOT issued or pressed in strict numerical order. The Liberty imprinted covers appeared before the change of pressing plants. For about a year there were lots of deviations. I have a first pressing promo of Jody Grind and the label says "a division of Liberty Records, Inc" but it is a heavy Plastilyte (sp?) pressing. This is the only one like it I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Post liberty take-over. I had a vinyl copy at one point and it was a property of Liberty issue. I think it started off that way. Gotcha. FWIW, here's a cover scan of CAPE VERDIAN w/no Liberty fine print, at least that I can see: Now, my copy of JODY GRIND has Liberty fine fine print on the cover and innerfold logo, but everything else is "pure" BN - label, inner sleeve, and "VAN GELDER" stamped in the dead wax. But that comes before 4253 (BTW, the 4253 thing is also given here: http://kleene.ss.uci.edu/~rmay/Bluenote.html ), so I guess the covers might have been quickly redesigned as part of the turnover? I bought it back in the 70s in a dusty old Mom&Pop type place that was they type of joint where they never sent anything back, stock accumulated for years, so my guess is that it's a fairly "vintage" copy. Now, for years, I thought that JODY GRIND was either the last pre-Liberty BN or the first post-Liberty one, just becasue of the fancy gatefold cover and the picture of Albert Lion inside. But come to find out, years later, it was the last BN album produced by him, which is relevant to this inquiry, but only tangentally. Now here's antother wildcard to throw in the mix - Jack Wilson's SOMETHING PERSONAL (4251) recorded in L.A., August 1966, and produced by Jack Tracy. Definitely suggests some "outside" influence, but by whom and at who's bequest? Did Lion & Wolff pass it off to him, or did the L.A.-based Liberty call for this one in anticipation of their takeover? Like we've learned, going by things like labels, covers, inner sleeves, and such means not too much of anything. Any definitive answer might depend on exactly how the question is phrased, if you know what I mean, and the question as originally posed might leave itself open for several different answers. Maybe. Where's Chuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Oh, THERE'S Chuck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Like we've learned, going by things like labels, covers, inner sleeves, and such means not too much of anything. Any definitive answer might depend on exactly how the question is phrased, if you know what I mean, and the question as originally posed might leave itself open for several different answers. Maybe. Exactly. This is all reminding me of the fact that after all these years, the manic collectors out there still haven't put out a list of actual release dates, or shall I say best estimates (at least I'm not aware of any, but then I'm no longer a vinyl hound). The old Down Beat ads generally come up as the way to attempt to trace the release history. But that will only tell you so much... And as Chuck and others have pointed out in the past, the folks employed in the manufacturing process didn't try to do things in a neat and tidy fashion that would make it simpler for future crazy people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Lets confuse matters even more. I dug through some old Down Beats and here are my findngs. The sale of the company was announced in the June 30, 1966 edition. The first ad that under the BN logo said "a product of Liberty Records" appears in the August 25,1966 edition. That ad features six new releases: Lee Morgan-Search For The New Land-4169 Big John Patton-Got A Good Thing Goin-4229 Hank Mobley-Dippin'-4209 Andrew Hill-Smokestack-4160 Dexter Gordon-Gettin' Around-4204 Larry Young-Unity-4221 Now even though some of these had been in the can for a couple of years, and the jackets may have not said anything about Liberty, they paid for the ad, so i would say these were the first Liberty releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Interesting question. Just going numerically, I'd guess 84118 (Free Form Donald Byrd). AFAIK it was not released until Liberty took over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Lets confuse matters even more. I dug through some old Down Beats and here are my findngs. The sale of the company was announced in the June 30, 1966 edition. The first ad that under the BN logo said "a product of Liberty Records" appears in the August 25,1966 edition. That ad features six new releases: Lee Morgan-Search For The New Land-4169 Big John Patton-Got A Good Thing Goin-4229 Hank Mobley-Dippin'-4209 Andrew Hill-Smokestack-4160 Dexter Gordon-Gettin' Around-4204 Larry Young-Unity-4221 Now even though some of these had been in the can for a couple of years, and the jackets may have not said anything about Liberty, they paid for the ad, so i would say these were the first Liberty releases. It may be, but I have a mono copy of Lee Morgan-Search For The New Land-4169 w/o Liberty on the cover and a NY label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 We should be able to find out what the first title recorded/released after the takeovere(June 30, 1966?) was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) I would guess that none of those six releases had Liberty on the covers, but they did own BN when they were released. Wolf, That ad was the first release after the sale of the company. It was pretty much BN's method of operation to release six titles at a time. But as Chuck mentioned, they were not always in numerical order. Edited January 21, 2005 by Bill Fenohr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Ive gone futher in looking at the Down Beat ads and it kind of jogged my memory. I think that the "a product of Liberty Rcords" started to appear under the BN logo on the front cover when they moved the album number to the top right hand corner of the cover. The first two that i can clearly see it are Sweet Honey Bee and Rough And Tumble in 1967. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 So, how does the Jack Tracy-produced Jack Wilson date fit into the Liberty-ness of all this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 The first two that i can clearly see it are Sweet Honey Bee and Rough And Tumble in 1967. Sorry but I remember I owned a damaged copy of Rough And Tumble for a short time and I think was a NY label. I am not definitely sure about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Don't ask how I know, but the BN/Liberty sale papers were signed on May 19, 1966 - hours after Alfred recorded Unit Structures. When it was released it had a Liberty cover with no mention on the heavy Plastilyte (old pressing plant) pressing. This stuff makes me dizzy, but I was a retail buyer in Chicago at the time, a BN fan and got most of them as they were released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjarrell Posted January 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Don't ask how I know, but the BN/Liberty sale papers were signed on May 19, 1966 - hours after Alfred recorded Unit Structures. When it was released it had a Liberty cover with no mention on the heavy Plastilyte (old pressing plant) pressing. This stuff makes me dizzy, but I was a retail buyer in Chicago at the time, a BN fan and got most of them as they were released. Well there you go. Chuck, I had a feeling it'd be you that came through with the definitive answer. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 The first two that i can clearly see it are Sweet Honey Bee and Rough And Tumble in 1967. Sorry but I remember I owned a damaged copy of Rough And Tumble for a short time and I think was a NY label. I am not definitely sure about it. Actually, Bill was talking about the cover. Coincidentally, I had a not so clean copy of R&T years ago, and one time I found a clean copy of the disc (no cover) at a flea market for a buck. I bought it because it was clean, and only realized when I got it home that it had a different (NY) label than my copy. I do remember that my jacket said Liberty on it. Note that sjarrell's (mentioned in the opening post) is a NY label also. Curious to me that the BN discography begins the "Liberty / United Artists Era" section with 'BOUT SOUL, which was well into 1967, and some 40 sessions after the date of the sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Curious to me that the BN discography begins the "Liberty / United Artists Era" section with 'BOUT SOUL, which was well into 1967, and some 40 sessions after the date of the sale. That's the first session after Alfred "retired". I'm pretty sure this is explained in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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