Rooster_Ties Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 (edited) Hey, anybody mind?? -- if we have a separate thread just for the discussion of "progressive" and/or "out-leaning" OJC's. (Call this a companion to this thread: Before OJCs go away, what to buy.) I'm not aware of very many progressive and/or "out-ish" OJC's (just cuz there aren't that many, far as I know), but I'm guessing there's a few that exist that I have no idea about. Lay 'em on me, and thanks!!! Edited January 20, 2005 by Rooster_Ties Quote
Late Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 How one defines "progressive" or "out" is always a relative thing, of course. That said, all the sessions (led and co-led) by Eric Dolphy are worthwhile, as are the two sessions by Ornette Coleman. I'd particularly single out these three sessions: Most here, I'm guessing, have this one. Great to hear Taylor with vibes. I always find something new in this record when I return to it. Four-and-a-half stars (sometimes five) in my book. Simmons, in particular, rips it up, and you can hear what Mingus must have heard (as he hired Simmons for a brief period) in his playing, most notably in the feature "Bojangles." Scott Yanow gives a surprisingly harsh to this one, but I find it to be one of the "missing links" in West Coast Out. (I'll let everyone decipher that term for themselves.) Very subtle at times, but consistently worthy of repeated listenings. Quote
Late Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 I'll also have to go on the assumption that most here have the Lacy OJCs, namely the date with Don Cherry. Great stuff. Quote
brownie Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 The two New Jazz albums by Ken McIntyre 'Looking Ahead' and 'Stone Blues are definitely 'out' and should be 'in' the list! Quote
Guy Berger Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Two favorites that haven't been mentioned so far: Charles Mingus, Town Hall Concert Sonny Simmons & Prince Lasha, Firebirds (would be routinely mentioned as a classic if it was on BN) Quote
Guest akanalog Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 does anyone else like "the cry" more than "firerbirds"? i definitely do. also i would suggest the two woody shaw albums-"blackstone legacy" and "song of songs" also jaki byard's "sunshine of my soul" also joe henderson's "the elements" i don't care for it too much but perhaps shelley manne's "alive in london"? sonny simmons has another album that was reissued more recently-what is it called? don't remember, but i didn't like it too much. it was a bit too harsh and angry sounding. jack dejohnette's two albums "the dejohnette complex" and sorry it is late and i don't remember the name of the other one. it isn't as good anyway, in my book. not that the first one is so good. but it has a lot of dejohnette playing melodica while roy haynes plays drums. weird. pat martino's "baiyana: the clear evidence" is pretty weird. sort of annoying to listen to but i don't think richard davis or charli persip ever played on an album like this before or after. of course walt dickerson should be mentioned here i guess-"to my queen" being the main one to check out. in my opinion, progressive for its time eric kloss "meets the rhythm section". i don't care for this one-but others like it i am sure. kloss plus miles davis' dejohnette/holland/corea rhythm section. martino sits in on half the cuts. haven't heard the gil melle albums in a while but i am sure other people are conversant in them and i think they would fit this bill too. paul bley-aaagh. again sorry it is late-but the recent twofer would fit this bill too. i didn't care for this twofer too much. the scorpio stuff with altschul and holland is good but the other stuff with some rhythm players i haven't heard of outside of bley are pretty blah. and bley uses some grating synth sounds. well here's a little food for thought at least... Quote
Guest akanalog Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 (edited) another one i am not crazy about- barney kessel's "feeling free" which isn't particularly free but it is from like '69 and has elvin and bobby hutcherson in the quartet so you know it's aight and they definitely keep things looser. also, if you like tyner's milstone period sound- "sama layuca" gets a little more out there, to my ears. sounds like a hectic modal mess sometimes, but a little out... Edited January 20, 2005 by akanalog Quote
Д.Д. Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Don Ellis Geoirge Russel (with Ellis and Dolphy!) Don Friedman Quote
Brandon Burke Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Scott Yanow gives a surprisingly harsh to this one, but I find it to be one of the "missing links" in West Coast Out. (I'll let everyone decipher that term for themselves.) Very subtle at times, but consistently worthy of repeated listenings. I've never even heard of this record (or Tatro for that matter). What else can you tell me about it? Quote
Guy Berger Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 I think a lot of the McCoy Tyner stuff from the early 70s could be considered out. Definitely way way out by 1959 standards. What about the Ervin/Byard/Davis/Dawson albums? Guy Quote
WD45 Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Sonny Simmons & Prince Lasha, Firebirds (would be routinely mentioned as a classic if it was on BN) How true! Quote
sidewinder Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Sonny Simmons & Prince Lasha, Firebirds (would be routinely mentioned as a classic if it was on BN) How true! It would make a very good Bobby Hutcherson Blue Note ! The other Sonny Simmons that was put out on CD is 'Burning Spirits', originally a 2LP set and with Barbara Donald also in the front line. I like 'Rumasuma' a heck of a lot too (2 basses in addition to Simmons and Donald plus Billy Higgins on drums). Don't know if it ever came out as an OJC but if so, worth picking up. Quote
sidewinder Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Don't miss Eric Kloss 'Skyshadows/In The Land Of The Giants' either.. Quote
garthsj Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 ... and for "early" out ... don't forget the seminal stuff by Shorty Rogers, Shelly Manne and Jimmy Giuffre "The Three" and "The Two" ... Anyone interested in "free jazz" has to start here to some extent. Then there are the Teddy Charles albums with Rogers and Giuffre, and also "Prestige Jazz Quartet" albums, especially the one with Teo Macero. These albums, recorded in the mid-fifties, form the foundation of what was to follow, but somehow they have been neglected, They deserve their place in jazz history ... Quote
Joe Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 (edited) Jimmy Woods: (Joe Gordon, LOOKIN' GOOD) Edited January 20, 2005 by Joe Quote
Late Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 (edited) Scott Yanow gives a surprisingly harsh to this one, but I find it to be one of the "missing links" in West Coast Out. (I'll let everyone decipher that term for themselves.) Very subtle at times, but consistently worthy of repeated listenings. I've never even heard of this record (or Tatro for that matter). What else can you tell me about it? Tatro played the tenor saxophone in Stan Kenton's orchestra when he was a teenager, but largely gave up the horn (whether or not entirely, I don't know) to focus on composing in later years. Jazz for Moderns uses two different octets. If you like Lennie Niehaus on Prestige, or Teddy Charles' stuff, you'll probably like this album. Here are the details: 1. Backlash 2:58 2. Multiplicity 2:50 3. Minor Incident 3:27 4. Turbulence 2:10 5. Low Clearance 3:01 6. Folly 2:19 7. Dollar Day 3:38 8. Easy Terms 4:13 9. Outpost 3:09 10. Maybe Next Year 2:57 11. Conversation Piece 3:02 Stu Williamson: trumpet Bob Enevoldsen: valve trombone Joe Eger or Vincent de Rosa: french horn Lennie Niehaus or Joe Maini: alto saxophone Bill Holman: tenor saxophone Jimmy Giuffre or Bob Gordon: baritone saxophone Ralph Peña: bass Shelly Manne: drums recorded in Los Angeles September 1954 - November 1955 supervised by Lester Koenig Sound Samples. The music is definitely not about "emoting" in the conventional "out" sense, but rather various degrees of dissonance and resolution. Joe Maini does, however, get in some fine (if brief) solos. Edited January 20, 2005 by Late Quote
Late Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 David mentioned Don Ellis above, and I'd single out the following album as a "must-have" for anyone even remotely interested in "progressive" trumpet playing ... Just look at the line-up: Don Ellis: trumpet Al Francis: vibraphone Jaki Byard: piano Ron Carter: bass Charlie Persip: drums recorded in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey May 11, 1961 supervised by Esmond Edwards There is certainly some "out" playing here, and relatively early (1961), all things considered ... Quote
brownie Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 The OJC Moondogs 'Moondog' and 'More Moondog' are so out, they're beyond... Quote
Late Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 Sonny Simmons & Prince Lasha, Firebirds (would be routinely mentioned as a classic if it was on BN) How true! Firebirds also gives you a chance to hear the little-played alto clarinet. It's even pictured on the cover! Quote
JSngry Posted January 20, 2005 Report Posted January 20, 2005 What about the Ervin/Byard/Davis/Dawson albums? Indeed! ANYTHING w/the Byard/Davis/Dawon trio ( a favorite of sorts for Schlitten at the time, it seems) is going to take damn near any tune and mutate it far beyond the realms of "traditional". A miraculous trio, actually. This one finds Booker & Dex going up against that dynamic (w/Reggie Workman in place of Davis) for two long jams on very traditional forms that don't stay traditional for too very long, if you get my drift. Byard in particular is getting his freak on. Booker's there from the git-go; however it takes Dexter one tune to really catch the vibe. But when he does, WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Jimbobwe says check it out! Quote
ralphie_boy Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 The Quest, the Mal Waldron session with Dolphy probably fits the bill. Quote
Brad Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 I don't see how some of the records mentioned could be way out (unless swing is your only thing). Setting the Pace? Wouldn't think so, not with Dex. Joe Gordon? Huh. Eric Dolphy, Eric Kloss, Prince Lasha, yeah that I could see but I don't think Prestige put out that much stuff that I would consider really avant garde. Quote
Leeway Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 What about the Ervin/Byard/Davis/Dawson albums? Indeed! ANYTHING w/the Byard/Davis/Dawon trio ( a favorite of sorts for Schlitten at the time, it seems) is going to take damn near any tune and mutate it far beyond the realms of "traditional". A miraculous trio, actually. This one finds Booker & Dex going up against that dynamic (w/Reggie Workman in place of Davis) for two long jams on very traditional forms that don't stay traditional for too very long, if you get my drift. Byard in particular is getting his freak on. Booker's there from the git-go; however it takes Dexter one tune to really catch the vibe. But when he does, WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Jimbobwe says check it out! Does your copy have the original liner notes by David Himmelstein? Very funny stuff, and gives a good idea how f-----d up things can get when trying to make a record. As to "In/Out" playing, Himmelstein comments: "Booker leads of, going 'outside' at once, no problem with Jaki at the tiller...Now Dexter's turn...Dexter's my name, bebops my game. Right down the middle...Jaki tries to go 'out' but Dex will have none of it, exept as a joke." Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 Subdivision of music is always welcome. I usually respond to parentheses inside of parentheses. I'm deeply attracted to the guys about three tiers down from the real guys. I am willing to be challenged "to a point reached about 40 years ago". After that, feel free. OTOH, there is a ton of stuff (never mind the stylistic subdivision) curently available from Fantasy. Have a great time, don't worry about eras. Quote
paul secor Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 The JFK Quintet: New Jazz Frontiers from Washington - OJC 1924. Most of the playing is straight post-bop, but Andrew White's alto definitely leans toward the "out". Quote
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