ep1str0phy Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 And I assume that we lost the Ornette/Steve Lacy double-quartet sides in the Atlantic fire? Wha?!? This is listed in some book, although I don't have access to my library (at the moment). I forget the rest of the group, although I'm pretty sure it included Jimmy Garrison (and probably either Bobby Bradford or Charles Moffett on 2nd brass--after Don, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 This is listed in some book, although I don't have access to my library (at the moment). I forget the rest of the group, although I'm pretty sure it included Jimmy Garrison (and probably either Bobby Bradford or Charles Moffett on 2nd brass--after Don, of course). Sounds like you got some really, really good shit. Wanna share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 This is listed in some book, although I don't have access to my library (at the moment). I forget the rest of the group, although I'm pretty sure it included Jimmy Garrison (and probably either Bobby Bradford or Charles Moffett on 2nd brass--after Don, of course). Sounds like you got some really, really good shit. Wanna share? Honestly, I'm positive this info is in (some) widely circulating book--maybe not a discography--maybe a brief in-text mention. I'd scan the Litweiler book, but (again) I don't have it handy. Unless I was hallucinating again (and this thread started up months ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 So would it go something like this (off the top of my head)? Ornette-Bradford-Garrison-Blackwell-Lacy-Rudd-Grimes-Charles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Of course, Moffett could be on trumpet, you're right (though maybe unlikely)... in fact, Don wouldn't have to be involved at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 So would it go something like this (off the top of my head)? Ornette-Bradford-Garrison-Blackwell-Lacy-Rudd-Grimes-Charles? I've got some family flying in this weekend so I'll try to get the book. I think the lineup may have been a little more "Ornette-centric" (It may have been Moffett on drums, Haden on bass, something like that), but--whatever it was--I was kind of floored when I saw it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ornette and Lacy would make for an intriguing combo, whatever the rest of the band... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) From the Henry Grimes discography at jazzdiscography.com: Date: November 29, 1961 Location: New York City Label: Atlantic Don Cherry (ldr), Don Cherry ©, Henry Grimes (b), Ed Blackwell (d) a. 5829 The Idiot - 04:56 (Ornette Coleman) b. 5830 Harlemite - 08:34 (Don Cherry) c. 5831 Black Elk Speaks - 07:10 (Don Cherry) Details from Raben who says: Erroneously "Black Elk Speaks" was assigned to 2 masternumbers (5831 and 5832). 5829 is untitled - Raben says: Ornette Coleman composition - prob. "The Idiot". Chuck Nessa advises that this recording still exists. Comments from Bertrand This is obviously a half-session; I forget what the other half was. Neither Cherry tune was copyrighted, at least not under those titles. All other Cherry copyrights are the BN stuff, the tune from the Coltrane album and a tune from a Dave Pike record. Did Ornette ever record 'The Idiot'? Bertrand. Edited March 9, 2006 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 This is obviously a half-session; I forget what the other half was. Bertrand. It was simply a project never completed. There is no "other half". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 This is obviously a half-session; I forget what the other half was. Bertrand. It was simply a project never completed. There is no "other half". Perhaps our erstwhile colleague is referring to the unreleased Lacy Trio session done for Atlantic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Chuck, do you think I should check my closet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Chuck, do you think I should check my closet? I'd be happy for you to check your closet but I DO have the Cherry AND Lacy dates mentioned. In the mid '70s Nesuhi had offered to sell them to me and copies were sent. This was through Cuscuna (Atlantic employee at the time). The masters died in the fire but I still have my copies and Michael certainly kept a set for himself. I took a cassette dub of both dates to Texas when I visited Jim Sangrey a few years ago. He and Brenda hosted a party and it was played for the folks there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 And the people who heard them are still talking about them. I kid you not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) The other half I was thinking about was the Lacy date. Other half in the sense where, if these are ever issued, they would naturally fit together to make a decent-length CD. That is up to the reissue producer, natch, whoever he/she might be. Bertrand. Edited March 10, 2006 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 (edited) I knew I wasn't crazy--from the Litweiler book (1994 edition, on Da Capo, in case someone is keeping score): June, 1961 New York City Ornette Coleman Octet Bobby Bradford, Don Cherry (tp); Steve Lacy (ss); Ornette Coleman (as); Jimmy Garrison, Art Davis (b); Ed Blackwell, Charles Moffett (d) Unknown Titles Atlantic Unissued Other recording sessions may have taken place in this period; a studio photograph pictures only Coleman, Bradford, Garrison, and Moffett--the "working" Coleman Quartet of June 1961. This session is not listed in Atlantic's files. Edited March 22, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 I knew I wasn't crazy--from the Litweiler book (1994 edition, on Da Capo, in case someone is keeping score): June, 1961 New York City Ornette Coleman Octet Bobby Bradford, Don Cherry (tp); Steve Lacy (ss); Ornette Coleman (as); Jimmy Garrison, Art Davis (b); Ed Blackwell, Charles Moffett (d) Unknown Titles Atlantic Unissued Other recording sessions may have taken place in this period; a studio photograph pictures only Coleman, Bradford, Garrison, and Moffett--the "working" Coleman Quartet of June 1961. This session is not listed in Atlantic's files. IIRC, Bradford told me the photo was taken at a rehearsal, not a recording session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I knew I wasn't crazy--from the Litweiler book (1994 edition, on Da Capo, in case someone is keeping score): June, 1961 New York City Ornette Coleman Octet Bobby Bradford, Don Cherry (tp); Steve Lacy (ss); Ornette Coleman (as); Jimmy Garrison, Art Davis (b); Ed Blackwell, Charles Moffett (d) Unknown Titles Atlantic Unissued Other recording sessions may have taken place in this period; a studio photograph pictures only Coleman, Bradford, Garrison, and Moffett--the "working" Coleman Quartet of June 1961. This session is not listed in Atlantic's files. IIRC, Bradford told me the photo was taken at a rehearsal, not a recording session. Someone should tell Litweiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 That is a cool motherfuckin' band... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 The part that knocks me out is Art Davis. Art Davis. Too bad about what happened with the JaPM--that cat got around. I'd really, really like to hear him in this sort of context... the only thing that excites me more is the prospect of a Moffett/Blackwell rhythm team--now that is core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Reading over this thread, I wonder what it would take, logistically speaking, to have those unissued Cherry and Lacy recordings see the light of day on compact disc. Permission from Warner? What else? Curious, that's all. Um, and of course I'm to hear the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Reading over this thread, I wonder what it would take, logistically speaking, to have those unissued Cherry and Lacy recordings see the light of day on compact disc. Permission from Warner? What else? Curious, that's all. Um, and of course I'm to hear the music. I'd issue them in a New York minute. The Cherry date is wonderful and the Lacy is FINE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Chuck, is it more or less a matter of money, or do other (legal) issues come into the mix? I'd buy that reissue from you in a New Jersey half-minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Chuck, is it more or less a matter of money, or do other (legal) issues come into the mix? I'd buy that reissue from you in a New Jersey half-minute. From another thread, almost four years ago... Long story. In the late '70s before the Atlantic fire, I was negotiating with Nesuhi Ertegun (via Cuscuna) to buy 2 unissued dates from Atlantic. They had a half album by Lacy and another by Don Cherry. I planned an lp coupling these dates. We had agreed on the $, and Nesuhi asked me to negotiate royalty deals with Lacy and Cherry before signing. Then I received news via Cuscuna that the deal was off since Warner/Atlantic's Japanese affiliate (Pioneer) had announced the desire to issue a series of "unissued Atlantics", and had requested a complete master list. That series never materialized, and then the warehouse fire destroyed the masters. Luckily Atlantic had sent me 7 1/2 ips stereo copies of the masters. I think Cuscuna had a set as well, and probably sent them to Atlantic after the fire. A couple years ago I inquired about leasing the material so I could issue it, but was told the deal was too small for them to bother. The Cherry date is a trio with Henry Grimes and Ed Blackwell, and is spectacular. Ruppli's Atlantic discography lists 4 "unknown" titles, but I only have 3. Maybe the 4th was incomplete. Edited February 16, 2007 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Chuck, is it more or less a matter of money, or do other (legal) issues come into the mix? I'd buy that reissue from you in a New Jersey half-minute. we're so used to buying reissues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Let's take it to the streets y'all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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