The Atlantic Warehouse Fire

[nmorin]

I was reading the liner notes to Ornette's "Beauty Is a Rare Thing", and it was mentioned that as a result of a fire at an Atlantic warehouse, three times as much material was lost as was released!?!?! What else was lost in the fire? Other big-time master tapes?

Edited January 19, 2005 by nmorin

[GregK]

Incredible shame. I believe some of Coltrane's masters were toast too

[Michael Fitzgerald]

"With minor exceptions, every unissued pre-1969 Atlantic tape was destroyed." - Joel Dorn (from Coltrane Atlantic boxed set).

Copies of some stuff have been found elsewhere.

Mike

[nmorin]

"With minor exceptions, every unissued pre-1969 Atlantic tape was destroyed." - Joel Dorn (from Coltrane Atlantic boxed set).

Copies of some stuff have been found elsewhere.

Mike

Good Christ, that fire must rank as one the most enormous jazz tragedies that didn't involve someone dying.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Read on:

http://www.billholland.net/words/vault.html

Mike

[Hoppy T. Frog]

Madre de dios!!!!

"I know one label that has 40 reels of Sonny Rollins tapes recorded live in clubs in the Village during the '60s. They (the jazz division) know they're there. And Rollins has told people about them. But they're still sitting there."

[JSngry]

That would be RCA, and unless Sonny's had a change of heart over the years, I don't think he wants them released, at least in his lifetime.

[Morganized]

That would be RCA, and unless Sonny's had a change of heart over the years, I don't think he wants them released, at least in his lifetime.

What a shame! I think Sonny's RCA work is some of his very best. I really began to appreciate Sonny after spending considerable time here. I would love to hear some of his live work during this same period.

Jim, are you also aware of Sonny's objections to their release?

[JSngry]

Here's what I know, none of it "firsthand".

Sonny's apparently doesn't like to "live in the past" in terms of his recordings. Somewhere in the very early 1980s, French RCA released an outstanding 2-LP compilation of previously unrelased studio material. Sonny supposedly raised holy hell, and not just because he wasn't paid. The agreement that I heard was reached was that the stuff that had come out would be allowed to stay out (thus all the "new" material on american CD issues of the RCA material), but that that was to be it. No more.

Around the same time as the French release, Coda magazine published a discography of unreleased Rollins RCA studio material, with the caveat taht it ws by no means complete. Some of the sessions listed appear on paper to be very enticing. I wish I had that issue today.

All of this is in addition to the unissued Village Gate material, which is indeed some of my favorite Rollins (and which I've heard consists of anywhere from 4 to 8 hours worth of material). My guess is that when Sonny passes, it will all start to come out in some form or fashion. But if that's the way it's gonna be, I'm in no hurry.

But you never know. Sonny might indeed have a change of heart about this. Time will tell. I do get the feeling that the RCA years were "problematic" for him in some ways, musically and personally, although I'd not venture to guess why that was.

[Guest ariceffron]

MIKE HAVE U BEEN ABLE TO GO INTO THE VAULTS 4 YOUR RESARCH

[Sundog]

Up. I've been thinking about this the last couple of days. We've had some incredible finds released lately, but there is so much that has been lost to the ages.

[Larry Kart]

Famously gone in the Atlantic fire ("famously" for the few who care about these players, but those who do care a lot) is an unreleased Tony Fruscella album with Brew Moore. There's not much Fruscella on record, and everything he played is potentially precious -- Moore likewise, though he recorded more.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

There is a rumor that a copy of that Fru & Brew session survived. When Jonathan Kutler did the Fruscella discography that was the predecessor of what's on my website he told me that. I'll try to find out more.

Mike

[Chuck Nessa]

There is a rumor that a copy of that Fru & Brew session survived. When Jonathan Kutler did the Fruscella discography that was the predecessor of what's on my website he told me that. I'll try to find out more.

Mike

←

A copy did survive.

[Clunky]

There is a rumor that a copy of that Fru & Brew session survived. When Jonathan Kutler did the Fruscella discography that was the predecessor of what's on my website he told me that. I'll try to find out more.

Mike

←

A copy did survive.

←

Do Uptown still have plans for a Fru Cd ??

[brownie]

Chuck, did you listen to it? Is this as good as the Fruscella Atlantic album?

I'm pretty sure it is. And if so, is there any way this can be released legally?

On Atlantic,? Rhino? Uptown? Anywhere else?

[Chuck Nessa]

Chuck, did you listen to it? Is this as good as the Fruscella Atlantic album?

I'm pretty sure it is. And if so, is there any way this can be released legally?

On Atlantic,? Rhino? Uptown? Anywhere else?

←

I should say Uptown does not have it. I have not heard it but I know who has it.

Clunky, the Fru 'n' Brew Uptown project is still possible but not a current priority.

[brownie]

Chuck, did you listen to it? Is this as good as the Fruscella Atlantic album?

I'm pretty sure it is. And if so, is there any way this can be released legally?

On Atlantic,? Rhino? Uptown? Anywhere else?

←

I should say Uptown does not have it. I have not heard it but I know who has it.

Clunky, the Fru 'n' Brew Uptown project is still possible but not a current priority.

←

All I hope is that it surfaces some day so that everybody can enjoy it!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Ira Gitler told me that he tried to get Atlantic to include the unissued session when he was pushing Atlantic to reissue Tony Fru's other album. There are several copies of the unissued session still in existence, some better quality than others.

Mike

[clifford_thornton]

I'd love to hear the Rollins quartet stuff with Prince Lasha - apparently there was quite a bit of it, I believe with Cranshaw and Higgins.

Wasn't there a Columbia warehouse fire too, at which point the infamous Sunny Murray orchestra tapes were lost?

[Chuck Nessa]

Wasn't there a Columbia warehouse fire too, at which point the infamous Sunny Murray orchestra tapes were lost?

←

No.

[ep1str0phy]

Wasn't there a Columbia warehouse fire too, at which point the infamous Sunny Murray orchestra tapes were lost?

←

No.

←

So they're just sitting on them?

And I assume that we lost the Ornette/Steve Lacy double-quartet sides in the Atlantic fire?

[Daniel A]

So master tapes for the recordings that were actually released were not destroyed in the fire?

The reason for my question is that it appears the sound of some, not to say many, Atlantic CD reissues are not comparable sound-quality-wise with many other contemporaneous recordings, and I was curious to what extent original reels still existed.

Is there any point in hunting for LP copies of albums with particularly muddy sound, or are the tapes that have survived the same as those used for mastering the original LPs in any case?

[clifford_thornton]

And I assume that we lost the Ornette/Steve Lacy double-quartet sides in the Atlantic fire?

Wha?!?

[Chuck Nessa]

So master tapes for the recordings that were actually released were not destroyed in the fire?

The reason for my question is that it appears the sound of some, not to say many, Atlantic CD reissues are not comparable sound-quality-wise with many other contemporaneous recordings, and I was curious to what extent original reels still existed.

Is there any point in hunting for LP copies of albums with particularly muddy sound, or are the tapes that have survived the same as those used for mastering the original LPs in any case?

They lost many/most first generation masters of the era. Many Atlantic cds originate with the lp "production masters" and master copies sent to foreign licensees.