Grachan Moncur "Evolution"

[J.A.W.]

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

If I remember correctly, Steve Hoffman said somewhere on his forum that Rudy Van Gelder EQed master tapes during recording or something like that. Maybe that accounts for the lack of treble.

Edited February 3, 2005 by J.A.W.

[J.A.W.]

  J.A.W. said:

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

If I remember correctly, Steve Hoffman said somewhere on his forum that Rudy Van Gelder EQed the master tapes during recording or something like that. Maybe that accounts for the lack of treble.

Here's the Steve Hoffman forum thread I was referring to. Hoffman made his comments in post #21.

[J.A.W.]

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

In the same thread (post #9) Hoffman said something about the cymbal problems.

[RDK]

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

I have no reason to doubt Ron, so it seems pretty clear (now) that the additional tape hiss on the TOCJ is likely due to higher gen LP tapes used for the Japanese releases. I would expect these LP tapes to be more compressed as well - and perhaps even more "analog sounding" if you buy into such things.

I wonder if the wonky high end is simply due to the original tapes now being 40 years old - perhaps the LP tapes the Japanese used "aged" differently?

What this should help prove, once and for all, is that it makes little difference if something is mastered in 16, 20-, or 24-bit. Or even that "original master tapes" are not always the best ones to use (at least with no disregard to personal preference).

Otherwise, interesting finds.

[J.A.W.]

  RDK said:

What this should help prove, once and for all, is that it makes little difference if something is mastered in 16, 20-, or 24-bit. Or even that "original master tapes" are not always the best ones to use (at least with no disregard to personal preference).

I agree.

[couw]

  J.A.W. said:

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

In the same thread (post #9) Hoffman said something about the cymbal problems.

interesting. If it is indeed a question of the actual recording being faulty, the question remains why the TOCJ does not have a problem with the highs. Or are the Japanese engineer filtering out this distortion as well? Or is it hidden in the hiss?

[J.A.W.]

  couw said:

  J.A.W. said:

  couw said:

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

In the same thread (post #9) Hoffman said something about the cymbal problems.

interesting. If it is indeed a question of the actual recording being faulty, the question remains why the TOCJ does not have a problem with the highs. Or are the Japanese engineer filtering out this distortion as well? Or is it hidden in the hiss?

No idea.

[Claude]

I just compared the "One step beyond" session included in the Moncur Select with the recent reissue in the japanese "Blue Note 1500" series.

The main difference is that on the Select, the upper treble seems to be cut off, making the cymbals sound muffled, removing overtones from the horns and the vibes, muting tape hiss. On the Select, the opening of "Ghost town" sounds dead quiet and unnatural (NoNoise or not). The new TOCJ-6609 is much more enjoyable for that reason.

It's not expensive, even in US stores:

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?...=lk_organissimo

Edited September 17, 2006 by Claude

[etherbored]

well, to get down to it, the deal is this: the japanese engineers equalize the masters they have with each issue so as to appeal to what they percieve japanese tastes are. hence the earier quip from cuscuna about them "adding tape hiss"...

however, i'm in your corner on this one. this latest series has resolution like there's no tomorrow. is it super true to rudy's original work? probably not. in the end, what matters most is its appeal to our own ears.

-e-

[Chuck Nessa]

  etherbored said:

well, to get down to it, the deal is this: the japanese engineers equalize the masters they have with each issue so as to appeal to what they percieve japanese tastes are. hence the earier quip from cuscuna about them "adding tape hiss"...

however, i'm in your corner on this one. this latest series has resolution like there's no tomorrow. is it super true to rudy's original work? probably not. in the end, what matters most is its appeal to our own ears.

-e-

Every engineer will "equalize the masters they have". That is their job. All I know about this session is: my mono lp (now gone) was one of my favorite RVG sessions, the early BN cd distorts. Don't know of the Select or J reissues.

[etherbored]

  Quote

Every engineer will "equalize the masters they have". That is their job. All I know about this session is: my mono lp (now gone) was one of my favorite RVG sessions, the early BN cd distorts. Don't know of the Select or J reissues.

indeed they do - but very few seem to like the nihongo...

-e-

[Kevin Bresnahan]

  Claude said:

I just compared the "One step beyond" session included in the Moncur Select with the recent reissue in the japanese "Blue Note 1500" series.

The main difference is that on the Select, the upper treble seems to be cut off, making the cymbals sound muffled, removing overtones from the horns and the vibes, muting tape hiss. On the Select, the opening of "Ghost town" sounds dead quiet and unnatural (NoNoise or not). The new TOCJ-6609 is much more enjoyable for that reason.

But Claude, on the ones I heard, these new TOCJ CDs have other problems. Pull a track to your hardrive and look at the waveform. The ones I've looked at suffer from compression. There is hardly any dynamic range (the difference between "peaks" & "valleys".

I get fatigued listening to CDs mastered like this. They usually sound better, but the lack of dynamic range just makes them sound less musical. It's almost like everyone became Phil Spector and wanted a wall of sound. It hits me like that. The new Jimi Hendrix remasters are the worst for this. Great sound - no dynamic range.

I've started searching for the old TOCJs wherever possible. I am about ready to give up that anyone will remaster for digital with dynamic range. Everyone is pushing up the levels. I don't see it going away.

Later,

Kevin

[Claude]

You are right Kevin, some "Blue Note 1500" sound poor.

But this one sounds good, and certainly better than the Select. I highly recomment it, even if you already have the Select.

In my view, this set is one of the worst jobs by McMaster, who did good work on other recent Blue Note or Mosaic reissues.

[Stefan Wood]

The Select sounds fine to me. Better than the previous cd releases.

[Claude]

Stefan, which aspects of the sound make you think the Select is better?

Edited September 21, 2006 by Claude

[B. Clugston]

When the Select disappears, it would be nice to see this reissued as an RVG, Conn, whatever.

[Stefan Wood]

  Claude said:

Stefan, which aspects of the sound make you think the Select is better?

It doesn't sound harsh to my ears, that everything from the treble to the bass doesn't sound enhanced. Clean.

Edited September 21, 2006 by Stefan Wood

[etherbored]

it's so subjective that it's not funny.

one listener enjoys bumped up highs, detail, and resolution while another listener appreciates the density of rudy's original work...

at least we all agree on what a teriffic date this is,

-e-

[jazzbo]

We do?

[Kyo]

Sounds like I will be holding on to my Select after all.