Buddy Rich Big Band

[Ted O'Reilly]

Now - does anyone know : 1) When Dave played with Buddy; and 2) if there are any recordings with Dave in the band -

AllenLowe: the Tom Lord Discography (4.4 version) doesn't show anything by Buddy and Dave....

[AllenLowe]

I know - i was thinking maybe boots or air shots -

[marcello]

He also made a solo recording but it has never been released.

If this reference is to a live taping in Toronto, I was the one that recorded it for broadcast on CJRT-FM. At least five years ago Barry's father learned I had done it, and called me about it. I sent it all to him (about 90-100 minutes of digitally-recorded solo work) and then never heard anything more. I thought it was releaseable music--I made a cassette to listen to in my car--but I guess the Kieners didn't.

Yes Ted, that is the recording I was talking about. I have a cassette copy from the Kieners. Those masters are sitting somewhere in his brother Steve's house gathering dust. I talked to them about helping getting it released but brother Steve has dropped the ball. I's a very fine performance.

Maybe you can contact John Norris about that piece he wrote about Barry?

Edited January 21, 2005 by marcello

[DTMX]

I wonder if they're ever going to get around to doing that Buddy Rich biopic that's been in Limbo forever:

"Miguel Ferrer is set to start with the K-Street and Ocean’s Eleven combo of Steven Soderbergh and George Clooney producing. The movie is expected to have a 2004 release date..."

[Jazz Kat]

QUOTE=marcello,Jan 20 2005, 09:31 AM]

Thay band only existed as a showcase for Buddy's talent. That's one of the reasons that he could not hold soloist for very long.

Europe 77

Chuck Schmidt, Dean Pratt, John Marshall, Danny Hayes (t); Matt Johnson, Dale Kirkland (tb); Edward Eby (btb); Chuck Wilson, Alan Gauvin, Steve Marcus, Gary Pribeck, Greg Smith (reeds); Barry Keiner (p); Tom Warrington (b)

Were there really lengthy solos in any big band? Except for maybe Stan Kenton, usually big bands were about the band as a whole more than the soloists. The arrangements were the key parts of the band, even though there were sometimes, exceptional solos. There weren't really any long solos in Count Basie's band.

[Free For All]

Were there really lengthy solos in any big band?

Frequently on live gigs. Less so on studio recordings.

[sidewinder]

Some of the best live Buddy Rich is on that RCA double 'Very Alive at Ronnie Scotts', with the Pat LaBarbera era lineup. Starts off at warp factor 10 with a great version of 'Moments Notice'. I'm not sure if its ever been reissued on CD but well worth picking up the LP set if you see it.

I saw Rich and the orchestra at Ronnie's a couple of times in the early 1980s and the drive, energy and precision was just incredible for a guy who had suffered heart attacks. The repartee between Buddy and Ronnie was also great, each one trying to out-do the other in the humour stakes. On one of those evenings they put in a half hour live broadcast for BBC TV before the main show which I never did get the chance to see ( ).

Edited January 23, 2005 by sidewinder

[JSngry]

Were there really lengthy solos in any big band?

Frequently on live gigs. Less so on studio recordings.

Yep. Every big band I've seen and/or played in always stretches the solos out live.

[AllenLowe]

I must admit I never liked the Buddy Rich big band - too much bombast, and I found his playing to be very brittle and showy - and than one night I saw a clip with Buddy and a small group from the Playboy jazz Fest and was completely knocked out - he was with an all-star small band that included Dizzy, and maybe he didn't feel like he had to show off or something, but he was phenomenal, really kicking and driving it. Sounding - though I didn't really know it than - a LOT like Dave Tough -

Edited January 23, 2005 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Yeah, Buddy was a "complicated" case, as they say.

Some insight into his nature, perhaps, came from a bass player who used to live around here, a cat named Anthony Brock. He did a tour w/Buddy's band, and when he came back, I asked him if there were any "problems" w/Buddy.

"None whatsoever", he said. "The first thing I did was ask him where he wanted the time. 'RIGHT ON THE BEAT', he said, so I made sure to put it right on the beat every second of every tune. We got along just fine."

I think that's a good picture of how Buddy liked his music to be played - "right on the beat", emphatically and undeviatingly so, figuratively as well as literally. Not the way that too many of us play (or live), but that was who he was, and that was what he demanded.

His band, his life, his perogative.

Edited January 23, 2005 by JSngry

[JSngry]

And also, there's that Lionel Hampton Groove Merchant side w/Buddy on drums where they play some kinda "funky" stuff. I heard that blind one niight, and was astounded by the drummer, how much SERIOUS ass he was kicking in that groove. When I found out that it was Buddy, I was shocked and not shocked, if you know what I mean.

[marcello]

There was a time, om the early to mid '70's that I saw Buddy in a Quartet with Illinois J., Jimmy Mc Griff and I cant remember the 4th player. I might have been a guitarist. Staight ahead swing small group playing. There was a record with Buddy, Zoot and Bucky P. that I used to own on Groove Merchant.

The trio music that he used to play with Kiener was swing piano trio music; with a modern approach, of course. Besides "Autum Leaves" they also played " La Fiesta" and such. The comparison to Tough is correct to some extent but Rich has WAY more chops. Maybe we should go back and listen to those Lester Young recording with Lester, Buddy and Nat Cole and compare those to Tough in a simular setting.

Any idea's, Allen?

Edited January 23, 2005 by marcello

[AllenLowe]

Yes, I forgot about the Nat Cole/Prez/Buddy sides, which are among my favorites; but I don't think I would put Buddy ahead of Dave Tough, who was really quite fantastic in both small and large groups; for small groups. off the top of my head: Improvisation for the March of Time (1946, led by Wild Bill Davison),and I'm sure there's others, for big band things, of course, the sides with Woody Herman. I once had a nice conversation with Max Roach, who described how much he liked Tough's playing, and how Tough used to sit right in front of the drums on 52nd Street, fascinated by the beboppers. He was also a bit of an intellectual, wrote a column for Metronome I think, and died very tragically in the street, from a drunken fall. Barrett Deems has described how Tough's family refused to let his wife, who was black, come to the funeral - typically tragic jazz story, all in all - the amazing thing about Tough was how much his time seemed to breathe with the band - his playing had an elasticity, inwhich he almost seemed to stretch the beat, and then snap it right back into place -

Edited January 23, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Allen -

Just a stab in the dark - I wonder if perhaps this was not Buddy's own band, but rather the 1950 Tommy Dorsey band.

It's documented on records that Buddy was there the first two months of 1950 and Schildkraut was there in September 1950 - but maybe there were other periods when they overlapped?

Mike

[AllenLowe]

Interesting, Mike - it was Dave's wife who described it to me as "the Buddy Rich Band" but I never asked her (or Dave) for a time frame - and it's also possible that, having met Dave in that band in 1950, that that was why Buddy hired him later on. Unfortunately, both Dave and his wife are dead so it's unlikely I'll get a definitive answer -

Edited January 23, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Randy Twizzle]

He was also a bit of an intellectual, wrote a column for Metronome I think, and died very tragically in the street, from a drunken fall. Barrett Deems has described how Tough's family refused to let his wife, who was black, come to the funeral - typically tragic jazz story, all in all

[BFrank]

eMusic just added "Live-WHAM!" and I downloaded it.

What a smokin' set!

This at the end of the AMG review pretty much sums it up:

The music itself — from Horace Silver's "Cape Verdean Blues" to Bill Reddie's "Channel One Suite" — is played one way: without a flaw, full of piss and vinegar, and physical — in your face. This is big-band music that will remain contemporary no matter when it is heard because Rich was timeless in his approach to music and life. This set, even with its sonic limitations, is as good as any Rich recording on the market, and better than any of the live ones.

[makpjazz57]

WHAM! is a favorite of mine. Any of the Rich recordings that included pianist Barry Kiener automatically get a zillion stars from me. Besides, that was a great time period for the band, musically speaking. I want to know if and when the other, I think, 90 plus hours of live recorded music of this band will be released (from the same time period).

Marla

[gtilts]

This will be a hard post for me.

As you may know, Barry died very young ;while on the road with Buddy as a matter of fact.

He was brilliant. One of those few really brilliant people there are in the world. Could master almost anything with his acute power of consentration.

There was a time when he played in some Dixieland group as one of his many varied gigs. He immersed hinself in a study of James P, Fats, George Lewis, Pops and Jelly Rolls and came to master ( not imitate ) their styles. He came to own "The Millenburg Joys" and "Handfull Of Keys".

He did the same with his other heroes like Bill Evans, Tatum, Herbie, Sonny Clark, Carl Perkins, etc. I still measure pianists that I hear today by his standard. He really was a giant talent; exciting, funny, inventive.

Buddy, of course, loved him. It was during the times when they were together that Buddy took on more staight Trio gigs.; both with symphonies and T.V. Barry could challenge him and play WITH him as a equal.

Barry Harris, Tommy Flamagan, Mel Lewis, and Al Cohn and othersalso dug him and sought him out to play for them.

Once, when Joe Venuti was playing in Rochester, our hometown, he couln't stand that local trio he was saddled with. On opening night of a two week stand Barry and I were in the audience and on a break we said hello. Joe didn't know Barry, but he was eager for relief and invited him to sit in. After one song Joe was so happy and having fun! Barry played the rest of the night ( Joe had asked the regular pianist to take a long, long break) and Joe asked us how often he could come back to play. Barry came every night that he could and the regular pianist took another long, long, break.

I remember that Lin Biviano band ( Biviano played with Basie). it also had our great friend Joe Romano in it and Steve Smith, the drummer.

There is a whole generation of players that came up with Barry; mostly in the big bands of Rich, Ferguson, Kenton and Woody Herman. he was a influence on a lot of them and still speak of him with awe and wonder of his talent. Thank God that I have many private tapes of him in all kinds of formats.

I think it is poissible to get the two recording he made. The best is a duo recording with bassist Frank Pullara, recorded live. He also made a solo recording but it has never been released.

John Norris of Coda magazine and Sackville Records wrote a fine piece on Barry just after he passed in '86. I wish I had it so I could post it here.

If anyone else has anything to say abiut Barry Kiener, I'd like to see it here.

[gtilts]

This will be a hard post for me.

As you may know, Barry died very young ;while on the road with Buddy as a matter of fact.

He was brilliant. One of those few really brilliant people there are in the world. Could master almost anything with his acute power of consentration.

There was a time when he played in some Dixieland group as one of his many varied gigs. He immersed hinself in a study of James P, Fats, George Lewis, Pops and Jelly Rolls and came to master ( not imitate ) their styles. He came to own "The Millenburg Joys" and "Handfull Of Keys".

He did the same with his other heroes like Bill Evans, Tatum, Herbie, Sonny Clark, Carl Perkins, etc. I still measure pianists that I hear today by his standard. He really was a giant talent; exciting, funny, inventive.

Buddy, of course, loved him. It was during the times when they were together that Buddy took on more staight Trio gigs.; both with symphonies and T.V. Barry could challenge him and play WITH him as a equal.

Barry Harris, Tommy Flamagan, Mel Lewis, and Al Cohn and othersalso dug him and sought him out to play for them.

Once, when Joe Venuti was playing in Rochester, our hometown, he couln't stand that local trio he was saddled with. On opening night of a two week stand Barry and I were in the audience and on a break we said hello. Joe didn't know Barry, but he was eager for relief and invited him to sit in. After one song Joe was so happy and having fun! Barry played the rest of the night ( Joe had asked the regular pianist to take a long, long break) and Joe asked us how often he could come back to play. Barry came every night that he could and the regular pianist took another long, long, break.

I remember that Lin Biviano band ( Biviano played with Basie). it also had our great friend Joe Romano in it and Steve Smith, the drummer.

There is a whole generation of players that came up with Barry; mostly in the big bands of Rich, Ferguson, Kenton and Woody Herman. he was a influence on a lot of them and still speak of him with awe and wonder of his talent. Thank God that I have many private tapes of him in all kinds of formats.

I think it is poissible to get the two recording he made. The best is a duo recording with bassist Frank Pullara, recorded live. He also made a solo recording but it has never been released.

John Norris of Coda magazine and Sackville Records wrote a fine piece on Barry just after he passed in '86. I wish I had it so I could post it here.

If anyone else has anything to say abiut Barry Kiener, I'd like to see it here.

My name is Diane, I knew and loved Barry very well. I have a much treasured box of personal tapes and memorabilia of Barry. He was a very uplifting spirit to be around, very funny, and extremely talented beyond words.

[marcello]

Diane!

How are you?

[Stereojack]

I've had a love-hate relationship with Buddy Rich for decades. I really admire his work as a youngster with the Bunny Berigan, Artie Shaw, and Tommy Dorsey bands, but really couldn't warm up to his 1960's & 70's bandleading years, even though I saw the band twice (in 1966 and 1970). It all seemed to about Buddy's aggressive, over-the-top showboating. and of course there are the infamous candid tapes of Buddy chewing out the band, which cannot endear one to Buddy's personality. :-)

Recently I've been picking up the jazz video boxed sets from Jazz Icons, and in one of the sets there is a 1978 concert by Buddy and his band at the Northsea Jazz Festival. I had put off viewing this one until it was the last one in the set, and last night we finally sat down with it. I have to say that I was totally blown away! The drive, the precision, the sheer virtuosity was tremendously exciting, and on his own terms, there just isn't any musician on the planet who could generate excitement like this. Say what you will about Buddy's brand of music, watching this video was a treat.

[Larry Kart]

I've had a love-hate relationship with Buddy Rich for decades. I really admire his work as a youngster with the Bunny Berigan, Artie Shaw, and Tommy Dorsey bands, but really couldn't warm up to his 1960's & 70's bandleading years, even though I saw the band twice (in 1966 and 1970). It all seemed to about Buddy's aggressive, over-the-top showboating. and of course there are the infamous candid tapes of Buddy chewing out the band, which cannot endear one to Buddy's personality. :-)

Recently I've been picking up the jazz video boxed sets from Jazz Icons, and in one of the sets there is a 1978 concert by Buddy and his band at the Northsea Jazz Festival. I had put off viewing this one until it was the last one in the set, and last night we finally sat down with it. I have to say that I was totally blown away! The drive, the precision, the sheer virtuosity was tremendously exciting, and on his own terms, there just isn't any musician on the planet who could generate excitement like this. Say what you will about Buddy's brand of music, watching this video was a treat.

Agree completely about that DVD.

[marcello]

That's a great band with Andy Fusco, Steve Marcus, Gary Pribeck, John Marshall, Dale Kirkland and Tom Warrington.

[JSngry]

Recently went through the whole Pacific Jazz catalog on CD (buttloads of extra material), and then the first 3-4 RCA LPs...now that I'm older and more scarred by life (aren't we all?) I think I "get" where Buddy was coming from with these bands and this music, even if I don't necessarily dig where he was going with it.music. Call it the "loving without necessarily liking" phase of my relationship with this music. All I know is that a lot of what once bugged me about this trip is now something that makes sense, especially the part about of Buddy not getting.a successful big band of his own until he was almost 50 (and after having floated around show business in various roles over the years). This guy was hell bent to carpe diem with this band for the rest of his life, and damned if he didn't. If you wanted to fuck around with the rest of Buddy Rich's life, even an hour or two of it, hey, your bad. 100%

Increasingly, I come to both understand and respect that.

And this: