John B Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I saw an Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers album, recorded live in Stockholm in 1959 on Dragon records recently and was wondering of this label is releasing bootleg material or if they have clearance from the artists to release these shows. Looking over their catalog, most of their material seems to be Swedish groups, but they do have live releases by Blakey, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, etc.. from the '40's and '50's. Does anyone know if these live releases are legit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clunky Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I've no reason to think that Dragon is anything other than legit, really great stuff on that label Arne Domnerus, Jan Johannsson, Stan Getz etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 These are recordings from Swedish Radio. The same source as their Monk and Miles issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 And a terrific Sonny Rollins thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 And a terrific Sonny Rollins thing. Yes, definitely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganized Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I saw an Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers album, recorded live in Stockholm in 1959 on Dragon records recently and was wondering of this label is releasing bootleg material or if they have clearance from the artists to release these shows. Looking over their catalog, most of their material seems to be Swedish groups, but they do have live releases by Blakey, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, etc.. from the '40's and '50's. Does anyone know if these live releases are legit? I have heard this recording recently. It is an interesting date. The lineup is Wayne Shorter, Lee Morgan, Walter Davis on piano and Jymmie Merrit on bass I believe. Playing is great as you can imagine. nice version of Like Someone in Love, and the "recently" recorded Lester Leaps In. Blakely introduces the tunes. Great playing....sound leaves something to be desired, definitely not the best IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I believe the Dragon label is legit. I purchased this on LP many years back and remember it being pretty good music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 They are bootlegs. Their other recordings may be legit but I'm sure Blakey, Davis, Rollins etc never saw a penny from these just like most European labels that put out live recordings of these artists. Great material though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 You are so very sure in your pronouncement. How? Have you seen the accounts books? Here's what Miles researcher Jan Lohmann had to say when this was discussed in 1998: Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:54:25 +0200 Sender: Discussion of Jazz trumpeter Miles Davis & his vast musical career <M...@NIC.SURFNET.NL> From: Jan Lohmann Subject: Dragon contra boots. The Dragon records is legitimate except that Miles then had a contract with Columbia. Miles was satisfied with the recordings and had his lawyer send Dragon a letter of thanks (addressed "Gentlemen") when Dragon payed the yearly 'royalty check'. Jan Lohmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 If Miles was under contract, did Columbia clear the recording and subsequent issue of it? If not, isn't it unlikely any of it will pop up in the official account books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 The accusation was made that Miles "never saw a penny" - the evidence that I presented from Lohmann suggests otherwise. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 how does this work? Would Columbia have had to clear this? Was this income through Dragon a little extra money on the side that the IRS better not have known about? Sort of like an artist-approved bootleg that went passed the record company so to speak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Christensen Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Dragon is a very honest record company, no bootlegs there. As a matter of fact they have a very, very good catouloge. I have severall of them. Check out their Lars Gullin, they are so good. I guees several of you know who he is, but for you who don't try him out. One of the best ever baritoneplayers, composer and arrangers. Besides him there so much great stuff on Dragon. Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Must agree with Vic, Dragon is a great label and I love the releases I have. Great notes and production values as well as sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 You know the Miles material must be considered "legitimate" because when the estate clamped down on the sale of dozens of bootlegs, the Dragon set was still present offered for sale by the chains and I was told by two jazz buyers that this set was "allowed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 OK, I stand corrected...partially. If this was totally legit, not only would the leader have to be paid but also the sideman (usually a one time flat fee) and I was told by one that this never happened. Also they would have to get clearance from the label they were on at the time and that also appears not to have happened. I have no doubt that Dragon is a great label and has done countless number of great recordings on their own but these still aren't 100% legit, not that it's kept me from owning them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 kdd, Again im not sure your assumptions are correct. If these recordings are from Swedish radio then the sidemen would have been paid by them or the leader for the performance, and since Swedish radio owns the tapes, Dragon would have no obligation to the sidemen.So if the sidemen have a bitch its with the leader of the band or Swedish radio. This seems to me to be the same situation as Mosaic leasing a session from BN or Verve or whoever. They do not have to pay the sidemen a dime. As far as label clearence is concerned, i suspect that alot of those contracts only covered the US as far as not being able to record for other labels. Many artists recorded for labels in Europe and Japan while "under contract" to labels in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Yes, perhaps they were paid for a radio broadcast but that doesn't mean they can release it as an album and not pay them. Two seperate things. As for the record company thing, I can't speak with the same certainty but I assume that if the artist was signed to a label it was a world-wide situation, especially if the label was Columbia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Evidence proves you wrong on this - look at Art Blakey's recordings in the 1958-1961 period when he was recording in the U.S. exclusively for Blue Note. He recorded in Europe for Fontana (Paris Olympia, Des Femmes Disparaissent, Paris Jam Session) and for RCA (Club St. Germain). And until you have seen those contracts, you can't say what the stipulations of the radio contracts were. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Wasn't the St. Germain stuff going to be done under the table, at least until the band found out about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I have the same question about an Art Blakey album, Live At Birdland, with Horace Silver, Lou Donaldson, Clifford Brown, and Curly Russel. I have seen the album, but not like the one I got. The one i bought does not have a fold open booklet, rather one of those cheasy one-pagers. It looks like it was made straight from a guys pc, in his basement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I have the same question about an Art Blakey album, Live At Birdland, with Horace Silver, Lou Donaldson, Clifford Brown, and Curly Russel. I have seen the album, but not like the one I got. The one i bought does not have a fold open booklet, rather one of those cheasy one-pagers. It looks like it was made straight from a guys pc, in his basement. Probably, an early CD reissue. Start picking up Blue Note's 'RVG' series of reissues for great booklets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I have started to. Have about 100 disks, probaly 50 of those are the RVG reissues. The other 50%, just Prestige and other jazz recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Wasn't the St. Germain stuff going to be done under the table, at least until the band found out about it? No way. I was at the Club Saint-Germain on the night the proceedings were recorded. The recording equipment was set up on a gallery in the back of the club in full view of everybody. The musicians were perfectly aware of the recording and I am also sure they were paid for the recordings. Producer was Daniel Filipacchi who also organised several of the Jass Messengers Paris concerts at the time. Filipacchi was then MCing the very popular 'Pour Ceux Qui Aiment le Jazz' show every night at 10 for the Europe 1 radio station. Theme song for the show was the Messengers 'Blues March' which became a hit in France. He was also an A&R man at French RCA. Filipacchi (and partner Frank Tenot) also organised - with the help of the Europe 1 radio station - the concerts that were later released on the RTE Trema label. The original editions of these legit albums (more concerts by the Blakey Messengers, Miles Davis, Count Basie, Oscar Peterson, Jimmy Giuffre and many others) bore the Europe 1 logo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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