Too Much Stuff Out There

[Nate Dorward]

I don't know the earlier Braxton standards performances, but I've just been listening a lot to side b of Trio/Duo on Sackville (from 1974)--& jeez, those are some of AB's best standards performances. The virtually unrecognizable "Embraceable You" in particular.

Re: volume of discs getting released: yeah there's a hell of a lot of stuff. Perhaps the scariest thing is that in terms of quality there's a surprising amount of really good stuff out there--it's not just a mountain of dreck with a few rare gems.

But I find the amount of reissued material in many ways more daunting..... & we can't blame current musicians' fecundity for that! Even just to buy every new Mosaic release that appears would vastly exceed my small budget at the moment, & that's just the start...

[A Lark Ascending]

On the standards issue...

I'm currently in the middle of a book made up of interviews of young-ish UK jazz players.

A common theme is how at festivals and in London they see younger faces in the audience; but their bread and butter is often made up of touring jazz clubs in the country where they face a sea of middle-aged and older faces. Such places expect standards; mention of an original gets grimaces!

And yet...

When playing to a younger audience the standards have little meaning. Play a Radiohead or Bjork tune and then you get a point of contact.

So the idea of two standards per album might well work for an established jazz fan but its no guarantee of connection with younger listeners; might even run the risk of labelling the music old fogeyish.

I like hearing new takes on standards but only if the musicians really want to do it. The presence of a standard on a disc has zero influence on my listening to it.

I've shelves of CDs with marvellous standard interpretations from a century of jazz. As a rule I'd prefer to hear original compositions on newer discs.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Bev Stapleton

[mjzee]

On Green Dolphin Street...

Sarah- on Mercury (Tivoli) as well as Roulette ("You're Mine You").

Johnny Hartman- "For Trane".

Nancy Wilson / George Shearing- "The Swingin's Mutual" -Capitol

Stella By Starlight...

Johnny Hartman- "All Of Me" -Bethlehem

Anita O'Day- The Complete Verve/Clef Recordings -Mosaic

Sarah Vaughan- on Roulette

Joe Williams- on Roulette

Thanks!

And he has no problem putting a new twist on them!

I think that's really it. A standard is a recognizable tune, but it's also a great tool for understanding the artist's concept. I was listening to Groove Holmes' "Groove's Groove" (32 Jazz) and heard him tear into "Where Or When." Man, was that smokin'! But knowing the song also helped me relate to how HE did it; and, because of his personality, it was very different than how others would perform the same song.

When playing to a younger audience the standards have little meaning. Play a Radiohead or Bjork tune and then you get a point of contact.

I like hearing new takes on standards but only if the musicians really want to do it.

Well, that's exactly it. Listening to Mike Ledonne's "Smokin' Out Loud," I got a real kick out of hearing handle The Carpenters' "Close To You." Another example: On Charlie Hunter's "Bing, Bing, Bing!" he does a version of Nirvana's "Come As You Are." My wife perked up when she heard that. Yet, in all of these examples, the performer's personality and concept shone through.

[7/4]

Well, I guess the live "There Is No Greater Love" with Circle was the first time Braxton recorded a standard, then there was "Come Sunday" from 1971, then the album on America with "You Go To My Head" (and "Donna Lee") - but for several years there were no standards included.

In fact, it was a principle of the AACM to play "only our own music - original compositions or material originating from the members within our group" (Muhal Richard Abrams - from the George Lewis piece on the AACM in "Current Musicology")

Mike

Nefertitti from Circle (ECM) 2/1971?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Nefertiti isn't a standard (and *certainly* wasn't in 1971) but that's from the same album as "There Is No Greater Love" (which is, and was then) - so same difference.

Mike

[JSngry]

Personally, I think that a lot of what's being released now is what should be being played in clubs as players work through/out the upper levels of their apprenticeship.

But that means a vibrant regional/national club/working band scene, and those days are gone, at least for now. Over, done, finito, taillights.

So whatcha' gonna do 'bout that? Me, I just get dark and drink about it.

Cheers!

[Chuck Nessa]

GEEZ! I have around 4000 thoughts in my head about this. I hope I can clear some of the shit and have something "smart" to say tomorrow.

[kenny weir]

Interesting thread!

I have no doubt the considerable upsides of the fredom (for anyone) to release a CD far outweigh the downsides.

For jazz musicians in a country such as Australia - isolated from the northern hemisphere jazz industry - it's a blessing.

Through the '50s, '60s and '70s, Australian jazz musicians relied on the miserly largesse of the foreign-owned major labels or the recording activities of the national state-owned broadcaster.

Now there are numerous small jazz labels, some - such as Newmarket - which operate as a label but where the product is financed and owned by the artist, enabling them to sell their stuff at gigs.

And through the internet and online selling, Australian artists at last have the opportunity - yet to be fully realised, it must be admitted - to be more widely heard around the world.

A related issue is the length of CDs. Just because you can 70 minutes of music on a disc doesn't mean you should. I could do with a lot more 40-minute new albums in my life.

[MartyJazz]

Funny that you mention "On Green Dolphin Street" and "Stella By Starlight," since those are two standards that I have never heard sung! Does anyone know good vocal versions of these?

Aside from the vocal versions mentioned previously in this thread, I would recommend the following:

On "Stella...", Ella Fitzgerald does a wonderful rendition on the cd, CLAP HANDS, HERE COMES CHARLIE (Verve).

For both "Stella..." and "Green Dolphin Street", check out of all people, Tony Bennett on a wonderful anthology of tunes associated with jazz that he recorded between 1954 and 1967, backed variously by people like Art Blakey, Stan Getz, Al Cohn, Herbie Hancock, etc. The title of the CD fittingly is JAZZ (Columbia). I hope it's still available.

[Joe G]

GEEZ! I have around 4000 thoughts in my head about this. I hope I can clear some of the shit and have something "smart" to say tomorrow.

I don't know if I'm up for 4000 thoughts, but I'll be interested to read what you have to say somewhere short of that...

[AllenLowe]

let's just start with the first 2,000 -

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Yeah, but you gotta have two standard thoughts per post. We don't want to be overwhelmed with original thoughts.

Mike

[7/4]

Nefertiti isn't a standard (and *certainly* wasn't in 1971) but that's from the same album as "There Is No Greater Love" (which is, and was then) - so same difference.

Mike

I don't know what I was thinking!

I'd consider Nefertiti a jazz standard today!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Agreed. I make the distinction between a standard and a jazz standard. Only a few composers have written both.

Mike

[kh1958]

Well, Mike, we can't say Shaw was over-exposed on the recording front -

I once wrote a review which I called "why does bad music happen to good musicians?" in which I discussed this very thing. I'm reminded of what we've seen with sidemen from groups like Ellington's and Mingus's - we saw good musicians play great with those bands, and than go out on their own and do very ordinary things (with exceptions, I understand).  I don't have any argument with a musician's RIGHT to play and record as he/she wants. I 'm only suggesting, per that NY Times article, that a musician needs to be his/her most perceptive critic. Otherwise it muddies the waters.

I'm curious which Mingus sideman you are referencing as making mediocre recordings.

If I think about the recordings of Mingus sideman (Eric Dolphy, Jaki Byard, Roland Kirk, Booker Ervin, Gene Shaw, John Handy, George Adams, Don Pullen), they comprise a disproportionate number of my favorite jazz recordings.

In addition, virtually any Ellingtonian sideman session is virtually guaranteed to be of high quality.

Edited January 1, 2005 by kh1958

[chris olivarez]

That was something Mike passed along about Horace Silver getting all those bucks from Hip Hoppers. It's also a sad commentary on the lack of love for jazz in the U.S.

[AllenLowe]

Well, I'm not saying all were bad - but the leader recordings of John Handy, Jimmy Knepper, were ok but nowhere near what they did with Mingus; Danny Richmond's , ok but nothing special; Clarence Shaw's recordings as leader, ok, but not nearly as good as with with Mingus; Kirk I find notoriously inconsistent; Shafi Hadi didn't do much outside of that band; Bill Triglia, pianist, played his best with Mingus (and on a recording for Debut); Horace Parlan -

Ellington sidemen - well, Rex Stewart and Cootie Williams are two who never approached their work with Ellington, when recording as leaders (except on early work as "Ellingtonians," which were really Ellington recordings); same with Ray Nance. Also: Lawrence Brown, even Johnny Hodges (a controversial pick, I know); Bubber Miley as sideman, not nearly as good as with the band; Harry Carney -

[Leeway]

Check out this article in the British newspaper, The Guardian:

Too Many CDs Being Released?

[Nate Dorward]

Wow. That's journalistic masochism on a par with an all-McDonalds diet for a month.

[kh1958]

Well, I'm not saying all were bad - but the leader recordings of John Handy, Jimmy Knepper, were ok but nowhere near what they did with Mingus; Danny Richmond's , ok but nothing special; Clarence Shaw's recordings as leader, ok, but not nearly as good as with with Mingus; Kirk I find notoriously inconsistent; Shafi Hadi didn't do much outside of that band; Bill Triglia, pianist, played his best with Mingus (and on a recording for Debut); Horace Parlan -

Ellington sidemen - well, Rex Stewart and Cootie Williams are two who never approached their work with Ellington, when recording as leaders (except on early work as "Ellingtonians," which were really Ellington recordings); same with Ray Nance. Also: Lawrence Brown, even Johnny Hodges (a controversial pick, I know); Bubber Miley as sideman, not nearly as good as with the band; Harry Carney -

Actually, I think Gene Shaw's three recordings as a leader are rather good. I'm wishing for a CD reissue of Debut in Blues and Breakthrough, to save me from bad Argo pressings.

Dannie Richmond only made a few recordings as a leader, but the one on Horo is outstanding, almost a Mingus recording. Also, the Last Mingus Band A.D. is rather good.

[AllenLowe]

I may have overstated my case; what I should have pointed out was the difference between good work and brilliant work, helped by having the right setting or showcase -

[Jim Alfredson]

Personally, I think that a lot of what's being released now is what should be being played in clubs as players work through/out the upper levels of their apprenticeship.

But that means a vibrant regional/national club/working band scene, and those days are gone, at least for now. Over, done, finito, taillights.

So whatcha' gonna do 'bout that? Me, I just get dark and drink about it.

Cheers!

I agree. Even if the whole mentor/apprentice thing wasn't there, it would help so much to have a network of clubs to play.

Shit, if we could just find a weekly gig at this point, to work our stuff in front of an audience, I'd be happy.

[A Lark Ascending]

Come and play in Worksop once a week. I'll turn out!

[Joe G]

GEEZ! I have around 4000 thoughts in my head about this. I hope I can clear some of the shit and have something "smart" to say tomorrow.

Hey Chuck - what's on your mind?

[mgraham333]

Funny. I found this thread just as I was listening to "My Funny Valentine" on Grantstand. I love standards with a twist. Granted (sorry, I love wordplay) there's nothing dramatically different about this version, but the instrumentation is a nice variation from all the other versions I have in the standard quartet or vocal setting.

As for too much stuff being out there - I agree that the quantity makes it harder to find the quality. I'm still in the early stages of my jazz listening - about 5 years now - so I am still working mostly on reissues. I have been fortunate enough to come upon some pretty good new releases. Of course that includes Boogalo Sisters. CDBaby is a fairly reliable source for contemporary stuff. But it's also an example of the quantity/quality problem.

I'm glad to have this resource for recommendations. We have all commiserated about threads that have caused wallet whiplash, but I have to say there have been just as many that have saved me a buck or two by warning me of some real turkeys.