St. Louis question

[John L]

St. Louis: the city that gave us Miles Davis.

St. Louis: the capital of Ragtime at the turn of the 20th century.

St. Louis: One of the major American blues centers from the 1920s to the 1950s. In the 20s, St. Louis had it all, from the sophisticated jazzy urban blues of Lonnie Johnson to the low down barrelhouse piano of Roosevelt Sykes to the ragtime country blues of Charley Jordan to the down home Mississippi blues of J.D. Short and Henry Spaulding. By the 1930s, St. Louis was home to the mainstream blues synthesis of Peetie Wheatstraw and the first (pre-Chicago) downhome urban blues of Johnny Lee Sonny Boy Williamson, Robert Nighthawk, and Big Joe Williams.

By the 1950s, the rich St. Louis blues and R&B scene included Ike Turner, Little Milton, Albert King, and Chuck Berry.

SO HOW COULD IT BE THAT ST. LOUIS NEVER DEVELOPED ITS OWN REALLY DISTINCTIVE JAZZ SCENE?

Edited June 4, 2003 by John L

[Dan Gould]

Miles Davis came from across the river in East St Louis.

[Rooster_Ties]

My father and Miles Davis were both born in the same year (1926), both in East St. Louis.

Both my father's father, and Miles Davis' father were dentists in East St. Louis. One was white, and the other black - so to the best of my knowledge, their paths never crossed.

Still, kinda an odd coincidence, slightly – or I’ve always thought, anyway.

[Chuck Nessa]

Everyone I ever met from East St. Louis had bad teeth - black or white.

[JSngry]

Does the B.A.G. scene count? And there IS the "St. Louis school" of trumpet players.

I've got a good friend who's close to a lifelong St. Louisian, and he claims that the city hit its peak when they hosted the World's Fair back in whenever it was, and that the city began a slow but certain decline shortly thereafter that has left its mark on all aspects of the city. That's just his opinion, though, and he still enjoys living there.

Might it be safe to say that with Chicago so nearby, relatively speaking, that it might have been both easier and more alluring to head there and sim big rather than stay home and play small? Just a theory.

Oh yeah, Grant Green.

[Rooster_Ties]

You know Jim, that "Chicago was so close" theory may hold some water, especially if there were already quite a few more active clubs up there, more than in St. Louis. Anyway...

The big World's Fair in St. Louis was in 1904. ( My grandmother was born in 1897, and went to the St. Louis World's Fair, and she recounted some memories to me of the fair as recently as 1997, shortly after her 100th birthday. )

Your friend's theory about St. Louis' high-point being in the early 1900's may also have a ring of truth to it as well. I only lived in St. Louis until I was 18 (born in '69, off to college in '87), but I'm having a hard time thinking of any kind of robust jazz scene that went on in St. Louis. Certainly nothing even half as important as the stretch of clubs in Kansas City on Vine St., between 12th and 18th streets. (Then again, I didn't know squat about jazz until after I moved away to college.)

St. Louis is a strange town, in my estimation. In some ways it's more like an East-Coast town, meaning it's more urban like the bigger cities in the eastern third of the country (and like Chicago). But Then it tries to claim some sort of 'gateway to the west' thing, when Kansas City really deserves that title more than St. Louis. (The "Oregon Trail" started in Kansas City, for instance.) And really, the St. Louis Arch ("Gateway To The West") should be in Kansas City if you ask me, and that's coming from someone who's originally from St. Louis.

I also thought of B.A.G. - which I don't know that much about, other than it was progressive, much like the A.A.C.M., and I'm assuming it existed no earlier than the late 60's. That's pretty late to be developing your first 'home-grown' jazz scene/style. What about the 20's, 30's 40's, 50's, and early 60's????

Great topic!!!

Edited June 4, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

Not an answer to the question posed by the first post, but I just nosed around about B.A.G., and found another similar group based in St. Louis in the very late 60's and/or early 70's...

Human Arts Ensemble

The Human Arts Ensemble was a musical and theatrical cooperative founded in St. Louis, MO, in 1971 by free jazz musicians who had been associated AACM and BAG (Black Artist's Group). Around 1970, public funding began to dry up for arts organizations that were suspected of having ties to radical political groups, and drummer Charles Bobo Shaw had the idea of creating a new artistic co-operative that was open to any person without regard to race. The resulting Human Arts Ensemble was thus able to proceed within a radical political agenda and pursue its unique brand of guerilla theater, yet get the public support it needed to do so.

The Human Arts Ensemble ultimately proved an important training ground for jazz musicians who were interested in free improvisation. Among musicians who spent some time jamming with the Human Arts Ensemble were Luther Thomas, Joseph Bowie, Marty Ehrlich, John Lindberg, and even a young John Zorn, along with more established artists such as Lester Bowie and Oliver Lake. The album Under the Sun, recorded in 1973, appeared on the Arista/Freedom label in 1975 to wide critical acclaim and even some decent sales despite its avant-garde orientation. Part of the appeal of Under the Sun was its blending of funk grooves with free improvisation. The Human Arts Ensemble continued to present elaborate musical pageants in the St. Louis area until 1977. At that time, part of the key membership relocated to New York, with others electing to stay behind in St. Louis. The group existed only briefly in New York, as Joseph Bowie ultimately became more deeply involved in forming his band, Defunkt, and the remaining Human Arts Ensemble members drifted off to other pursuits. — Uncle Dave Lewis

So, anybody have "Under the Sun"??? How is it???

[Rooster_Ties]

Artists and Groups from ST. LOUIS, MO (AMG, part 1)

Artists and Groups from ST. LOUIS, MO (AMG, part 2)

These lists aren't just jazz artists, and surely they aren't complete lists - but perhaps there are some names in there that might spark some more St. Louis oriented jazz discussion.

[Rooster_Ties]

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE BLACK ARTISTS' GROUP

During the late 1950's and early 1960's, several black musicians attended Sumner and Vashon high schools and Lincoln University who later went on to national fame. Much of their musical apprenticeship was spent in local rhythm and blues bands. By the mid-1960's, with the collapse of Gaslight Square, these musicians found that there was no place to play and develop their craft. Philip Wilson (percussionist) and trumpeter Lester Bowie eventually moved to Chicago, joined the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians (AACM). They planted the seed for the musicians in St. Louis to band together to form a collective.

During this period such musicians as Julius Hemphill, originally from Ft. Worth, Hamiet Bluiett, from Lovejoy, Illinois, Oliver Lake, J. D. Parran and others were trying to find work here. The frustration with the lack of creative outlets for their music led to such practices as playing outdoors in Forest Park behind Art Hill at night. These men formed the core of the musicians in the Black Artists' Group, founded in 1967. The St. Louis collective was different from that of the AACM in that from the very first, poets, painters, actors and dancers were represented.

Besides Hemphill, Bluiett, LeFlore and Lake, many other musicians were involved in BAG. In this group was Joseph Bowie, Gene Lake, James Marshall, Charles "Bobo" Shaw and Bakida Carroll. The poets Shirley LeFlore and Ajule were also involved in many productions. Floyd LeFlore described the atmosphere around St. Louis after the formation of BAG as one of great energy. By 1968, the group had obtained funds from the Missouri Arts Council and other agencies and obtained a building in which their efforts could be centered.

The BAG house became a center where many creative people came together. Beyond their own work, a project to teach music to the community made it possible for young musicians such as reedman Marty Ehrlich and guitarist Kelvyn Bell to obtain their early training in improvisatory music.

A major characteristic of the music developed at BAG was the ability to play and improvise with any combination of instruments. Bluiett described their efforts as continuing to play and experiment with odd combinations "until we found we could do it and we found that we liked it." A characteristic of the music that BAG shared with the AACM was the use of small percussion instruments.

In 1969, a concert was held at the Art Museum that featured the multimedia characteristics of the group. Several exchanges of artists between BAG and the AACM took place with such groups as the Art Ensemble spending considerable time here in the early 1970's.

A few recordings were made in St. Louis featuring BAG musicians during this period:

"Ofamfa" by the Children of the Sun (1971);

"Dogon A.D."* and "The Hard Blues"* by Julius Hemphill (1972);

"Whisper of Dharma" (1972) and "Under the Sun"* (1973) by Charles "Bobo" Shaw's Human Arts Ensemble;

"Ntu: Point from Which Creation Begins"* (1971) by Oliver Lake.

The recordings labeled with (*) received world-wide distribution through the Freedom Label, distributed by either Black Lion or Arista in the mid-1970's. Julius Hemphill's "The Hard Blues" was reissued in 1995 on the newly reactivated Freedom Label on a CD called "Reflections." It is hoped that the other BAG recordings in the Freedom catalog will be reissued.

Hamiet Bluiett left for New York in 1969 and by 1972, BAG had lost funding. Most of the musicians left St. Louis and went to Paris, where their work was appreciated for the first time by a wider audience. They found work immediately. A recording, "Black Artists' Group in Paris" came from a concert produced there during that period.

The American composer Anthony Davis has said that much of the energy that revitalized the music in New York since the mid-1970's has come from St. Louis and Chicago. The legacy of BAG is that many musicians surfaced in St. Louis who influenced the direction of the music since that time. A characteristic in the music of odd instrumentation showed itself immediately in the "Dogon A.D." recording. This featured a quartet led by Hemphill with the cellist Abdul Wadud in place of a bass. It is no accident that three charter members of the World Saxophone Quartet: Hamiet Bluiett, Julius Hemphill and Oliver Lake were charter members of BAG.

The material for this short history came from personal interviews which are copyright, 1987, KWMU-FM.

[Rooster_Ties]

'Poets of Action': The Saint Louis Black Artists' Group, 1968-1972 (Part 1 of 4)

'Poets of Action': The Saint Louis Black Artists' Group, 1968-1972 (Part 2 of 4)

'Poets of Action': The Saint Louis Black Artists' Group, 1968-1972 (Part 3 of 4)

'Poets of Action': The Saint Louis Black Artists' Group, 1968-1972 (Part 4 of 4) [sOURCE ESSAY]

Edited June 4, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Guest Mnytime]

I lived in St. Louis for 5 years. Never saw snow before the family moved their when I was 17.

Edited June 5, 2003 by Mnytime

[John L]

Yes, B.A.G. I stand corrected! I guess that my mind was on an earlier time from the 20s to the 50s. It seemed that all the ingredients were there but the jazz bands were not. The proximity of Chicago is indeed probably the most compelling theory here.

All of the ingredents were in Memphis too. Although Memphis was never serious competition for Chicago in jazz, we did at least have distinctive Memphis "schools" of jazz piano and saxophone by the 1950s. I would have expected at least as much from St. Louis.

Maybe if Julius Hemphill had been born a little earlier...

Edited June 4, 2003 by John L

[Guest Mnytime]

Can't answer myself. I wasn't into Jazz when I lived in St. Louis.

Though I did pick up a ton of bootleg rock recordings there.

Rooster what part of St. Louis where you in?

We lived in Chesterfield and Creve Couer.

I haven't been back in 13 years and could not name too many of the streets but I could still get from one place to another if I had to.

[Rooster_Ties]

Rooster what part of St. Louis were you in?

I grew up on the Illinois side of the river, but I think our house was actually closer to the Arch (as the crow flies), than some people who technically live inside the city limits, at the far edges of the city - down south and up north.

We lived (and my parents still live) in Fairview Heights, Illinois - just north of Belleville. Both my parents grew up in East St. Louis (back in the 30's and 40's - they're both in their 70's now). As a kid, we went to St. Louis all the time - Downtown, along with the Central West End, and U. City, and all around the county.

Even though I grew up on the Illinois side of the river, I think I spent as much or more time in and around St. Louis (City) as anybody -- considering how many of the people from the 'burbs never went to the city that much (from my experience in talking with other kids from St. Louis at the college I went to in the northern part of Illinois). I didn't ever experience much "night life" in St. Louis, however, since I was under 18 the entire time I lived there (from 1969 to 1987).

PS: I wasn't into jazz at all either, when I lived there. (Didn't discover jazz until my college days.)

Edited June 5, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Guest Mnytime]

I was there off and on from Aug 1982-May 1987. Taking into account time away from college. So who knows we might have bumbed into each other at the Landing.

Never went to the Il. side of St. Louis myself. Actually now that I think of it. I did drive through the area to drop off a lovely young lady I met at a Van Halen concert.