AAJ / Organissimo / JC

[7/4]

Of course, we've got lots of idle chattter and 7/4 and Couw padding our post numbers...

more post count envy...if it's eating you up inside, let it go man!

[connoisseur series500]

Of course, we've got lots of idle chattter and 7/4 and Couw padding our post numbers...

more post count envy...if it's eating you up inside, let it go man!

[Use3D]

You know the punishment for spamming is post count subtraction...

Edit: Not that anyone here is notorious for spam, but though I'd derail this topic for no reason.

[couw]

spam? where?

[Christiern]

Ummmmmmmm....Spam!

[wesbed]

Blue Note Spam

[EKE BBB]

This is the place to be, although I do drop in on AAJ at least once a day.

I'm there even less-maybe twice a week. I was wondering why I didn't see Chris pop in on the Wynton Marsalis appreciation thread a few months ago though....

Looks like that "Wynton Marsalis Korner II" thread got really hot!

But AAJ moderators deleted all the feuding posts, so we lost the fun! B-)

(And I´m not criticizing their policy. They can do what they want, do they?)

[LAL]

Looks like that "Wynton Marsalis Korner II" thread got really hot!

But AAJ moderators deleted all the feuding posts, so we lost the fun!  B-)

Darn. Go off these BBs for just a day and I miss all these juicy stuff.

[Christiern]

I no longer visit AAJ--It appears to me that Michael and Clifton have a bad, arrogant attitude that tends to alienate posters. They also have itchy delete-button fingers that go beyond maintaining decorum and into the realm of censorship. AAJ has become a rather unpleasant place to be and it is increasingly attracting a trollish element.

There has been a lot of confusion and conjecture surrounding my decision to totally abandon Jazz Corner, a BBS I formerly championed. Contrary to what some believe, my decision was not made because Stanley Crouch was coming aboard--in fact, I think his presence might have generated some interesting discussion--but it was Lois' modus operandi that I found offensive. She obviously decided to lure Stanley to JC by sending him a link to threads containing criticism of him. This was clearly an attempt to kiss ass and stir up some controversy--ok, so luring people to her BBS is a part of her job, but I don't think she should do it at the expense of others; I don't think she should invite animus, these boards create enough of that without prompting from administrators. If Stanley decided to check out JC, fine, but let him do it when he feels the need. As it turned out, he posted a letter addressed to Lois (this is how we discovered what she had been up to). I think the letter is a rambling, self-righteous glorification of the Lincoln Center jazz operation, and we all know how disingenuous Stanley is when the subject is Marsalis. His letter did, indeed, generate criticism on the board, and may still be doing so, but I am told that Stanley never returned to answer that criticism, so Lois' maneuver would appear to have been a bust (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I have added Stanley's letter to the bottom of this post--it would interest me to hear what my fellow Organissimo posters think of it.

My decision to leave JC was only indirectly related to Stanley, it was triggered by a post Lois made in which she for some odd reason decided to weigh my "contribution" to jazz against Stanley. First of all, I really don't think that a comparison of that nature was relevant, but I also saw no need for Lois to belittle my past efforts on behalf of jazz in order to make her recruit look better. Indeed, some of my fellow posters seemed to agree.

Organissimo has always been high on my list of jazz BBSs to frequent, but it has become the only place where I feel at home. Yes, I have had some run-ins with "berigan," mainly because he hides behind a noble name while distributing less than noble propaganda , but this place wouldn't be the same without a little of that. One thing I really like about Organissimo is that its operators don't see themselves as the cyber-SS, and because even holders of the most diametric views can become cyber friends--I think that has a lot to do with the general atmosphere at the board, and that--in turn--is to a large degree determined by the attitude of people like Jim. Before leaving AAJ, I suggested to Michael and Clifton that they pay attention to the way Jim, et al handle the administration of Organissimo--I think it is exemplary. I should also, in fairness, mention that I think Michael's decision to allow Organissimo discussions and updates on AAJ during emergencies deserves applause.

Here's Stanley's letter--Lois liked it so much that she re-posted it in another thread, so I'm sure she won't mind it being popped in here (the lead-in is Lois'):

Stanley originaly posted this in the news thread, but I thought it was worth reiterating here. Stanley sent me a short email before he posted that he will be gone till next week....

Dear Lois

Given all the hysteria that I became accustomed to as well as the dearth of serious questions at JazzTimes, I had no intention of responding to any of these sour letters, which I would not have known about if you hadn’t emailed them to me. But I changed my mind only because I was inspired by one of the letter writers. So I want, first, to commend Rob Damen for bringing something to the Jazz At Lincoln Center argument which we rarely see from its opponents: facts. I think he put a mute in Chris Albertson's mouth through detailed thought and close examination.

Mr. Marsalis is hated by those who are jealous of him or who resent his position of power in the music. He is even blamed for decisions separate from him, such as Ken Burns and Geoffrey Ward choosing to close out jazz when they did. That can be easily checked. It is not hard to contact either Burns or Ward. Personally, I would have put in another two hours, but Jazz still stands quite tall for the uncontested amount of time that was given to this art form. One particularly scathing review was written by a middle brow whose interview was found dull and worthy of the cutting room floor, yet neither he nor any of the carping contingent thought to propose a documentary focusing on the aspects of jazz they, perhaps quite rightfully, felt were left out. The success of Jazz meant that there was a very good chance of getting the funding for another project about the music. That, however would take something beyond talk. It would take work, which seems a foreign conception to the ongoing complainers.

Mr. Marsalis’s detractors have tried to bring him down with every accusation they could push into the air or onto the page. Dozens upon dozens of articles have been written with this intent in mind. The late Ralph Wiley was always ready to say that a commissioned piece for a men’s fashion magazine was rejected when he refused to “cut Marsalis down” or make him seem “arrogant.” Jervis Anderson bitterly recalled, in the restrained music of his educated West Indian manner, how he left the New Yorker after many years because his new editor refused to consider any new ideas he proposed. According to him, the reason for becoming alienated at the New Yorker after so many years was that he wrote a piece about Mr. Marsalis that did not do the demolition job that was expected. There is nothing like disappointment.

Yet none of the campaigns have worked, sad to say. All have failed, resoundingly, painfully, completely--though not silently. Mr. Marsalis has contined to rise and those resentfully squeaking from their gathering place in the bed pan have maintained their positions in an ongoing "pity party," as Mr. Damen so accurately describes the reunions. They and jazz are the victims of a conservative tyrant from New Orleans, a sub-talent and mere technician.

If there are "many" more talented musicians than Mr. Marsalis I would advise would advise those who believe that to talk with Greg Osby. I think he might put something on their minds, if they want something on them other than ad hominem bitchery. Mr. Osby can go into some detail about Mr. Marsalis’s musicianship. He can even give him some serious analysis of Mr. Marsalis's compositions (e.g. "Jazz" written for New York City Ballet). Mr. Osby could also easily provide some thorough pointers about Mr. Marsalis’s playing ability, which the saxophonist experienced on the bandstand last year and found quite illuminating. Disbelievers might also ask Peter Washington, a first call bassist who has performed with almost everyone. He can supply them some bandstand observations about Mr. Marsalis's melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic skills. If they want to know.

As for the Daily News piece, I wasn’t writng about the well known integration in jazz clubs or at jazz concerts or discussing ticket prices (the expense of which does not keep black audiences from rap concerts, by the way; think about that). The jazz world as we know and have known it was clearly not the subject. The subject was the upper echelons of the supporters of the arts in New York and the events that those PATRONS attend, which are almost always "hot or cold vanilla." Make no mistake, this is the very first time in American culture that the kind of people who have supported the opera, the ballet, the symphony orchestra, and so on and on have come forward and gotten behind jazz. Anyone who claims that bringing that off was a minor accomplishment achieved by a lucky lightweight is, as Mr. Damen observed, willfully lying. All with many years of experience know how difficult it is to get anything new through the complicated briar patch of the Manhattan cultural establishment. Try raising $128 million for jazz on the basis of having lucked up on a job that anyone else could have done.

Just for the record, what evolved into Jazz At Lincoln Center began establishing, in 1988, late Duke Ellington as the major body of neglected orchestral jazz music that it is. Presenting "Such Sweet Thunder," "Anatomy of a Murder," and "Suite Thursday" amounted to the first illumination rounds. Many followed. As a whole, they amounted to an innovation in the presentation of Ellington music because so much attention was given to his longer pieces, going back as far as The Liberian Suite and coming all the way up to The Degas Suite. That there was a body of listerners ready to reconsider the width and grandeur of his genius became evident as audiences left sold-out concerts in states of ever greater awe at the peerless compositional talent of that sequoia of this art form.

The central goal of JALC was to have jazz appreciated in its entirety, to elevate into plain sight as much of the art’s greatest music as possible, which is why the largely neglected music of Bud Powell and Tadd Dameron were presented, the former in both in trio formats and in commissioned arrangements, the later by Dameronia, with Kenny Washington playing his heart out. The same was true of a concert of Jackie McLean’s music, which featured that great man in varied ensembles and commissioned arrangements for a large ensemble. It was no mistake that Von Freeman, who had never been presented in a major Manhattan concert, was brought to New York where he played opposite Johnny Griffin, then was later presented in a tenor summit with Teddy Edwards and Joe Lovano. Before he died, we were trying to get Stan Getz to perform Eddie Sauter’s Focus again, which he declined to do, saying it was already too well done on record. When reminded that he played much better as a seasoned master than he had as a younger man, the great maestro agreed, began to waver and was considering it when he got sick. Those who attended the Art Farmer concert that featured the trumpeter with Jim Hall and with Gerry Mulligan got a special treat, one of them being the point at which Mulligan got loose on a standard and his baritone saxophone commenced to walk the bar in the air. JALC has continued to commission major pieces such as the one Jimmy Heath penned for Joe Henderson.

Because Wyntn Marsalis takes the position that “All jazz is modern,” music across the entire spectrum, from Jelly Roll Morton, King Oliver, and Louis Armstrong to Ornette Coleman, Sam Rivers, and Jason Moran has been given concert time. Near the beginning, JALC gave the only major concert he has ever played to Dewey Redman. Redman brought with him such unexceeded masters of fresh directions deeply rooted in the music as Don Cherry and Ed Blackwell. JALC has always presented the music uniquely because musicians have had the rehearsal time to give good performances instead of the traditional kind that were so often descibed as "suffering from a lack of rehearsal." That was an innovative break with the past that no one noticed (other than Jon Pareles of the New York Times). Along the way, JALC has hired, rehearsed, and paid over 1200 musicians since 1987.

JALC did a far from insignificant collaboration with the New York Philharmonic in which The Nutcracker Suite was performed with the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, alternating the original score for symphony orchestra with Ellington's score for jazz orchestra (almost all of which was arranged by Billy Strayhorn). This was not a minor moment in New York culture because the members of the New York Philharmonic and its traditional audience left with a new and thorough respect for jazz music. The mutual respect that comes of sharing a bandstand resulted in more supporters of JALC. Some who heard that concert were impressed to such an extent that they became financial supporters of JALC. It was perhaps the first time that they realized jazz was a major art whose masters of large ensemble playing could stand up next to anyone and hold their own.

The Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra has surely developed the largest repertoire in the world, one that stretches from early jazz to big band arrangements of Ornette Coleman music and the orchestration of his classic solo on “Peace.” The LCJO has traveled to every continent on the face of the earth and has met Latin, African, Asian, European, and Russian musicians. Some of them have been commissioned for compositions and performances that have resulted in remarkable collaborations.

In terms of outreach, Jazz at Lincoln Center has created and hosted, for ten years, an annual high school big band competition, “Essentially Ellington.” High school bands across this nation are sent Duke Ellington scores to record for demonstration tapes. The chosen finalists come to New York where they are judged by veterans such as Clark Terry, Jimmy Heath, and Herbie Hancock. The winners perform in concert with Wynton Marsalis as guest soloist. The “Jazz for Young People” concerts are always sold out at Alice Tully Hall. Each one provides an opportunity for parents to learn about the music along with their children. Jazz at Lincoln Center has presented many film programs hosted by musicians and has put on panels that are surely representative of what one expects from discussions of jazz. JALC has sent dozens upon dozens of musicians out into the public schools of Manhattan.

That doesn't seem to shabby to me, or close-minded. Those who complain about the artists that THEY think should be presented are always welcome to do as Leonard Feather and Barry Ulanov did with bebop musicians in the 1940s: rent Town Hall and present them yourselves. Then we’ll all see what happens.

Finally, however, this is not about any of the shrews futilely nipping at the toes of the shoes moving past them. It is about jazz and about the people who make it and who love it and who understand quite well when something of unprecedented significance has been done for this marvelous art. Jazz At Lincoln Center and the complex of the House of Swing, the Dizzy Gillespie Coca Cola Room, and the Allen Room are the result of the work of many, many people, of endless meetings, of sea changes in the world of patrons and of the extraordinary talent of a man with whom I was proud to work and a woman, Alina Bloomgarden, without whose inspired impetus, and the support of Lincoln Center’s former President, Nat Leventhal, we would have nothing to defend or bitch about.

Victory Is Assured,
Stanley Crouch

I wonder what victory Stanley has in mind?

BTW, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Rob Damen, but he is pesky, insufferably arrogant poster who only appears at the mention of Wynton (whom he defends with all the ardor of an idolizing school girl). His response to Crouch was: "Bless you, Mr. Crouch."

[J.A.W.]

I no longer visit AAJ--It appears to me that Michael and Clifton have a bad, arrogant attitude that tends to alienate posters. They also have itchy delete-button fingers that go beyond maintaining decorum and into the realm of censorship. AAJ has become a rather unpleasant place to be and it is increasingly attracting a trollish element.

(...) Before leaving AAJ, I suggested to Michael and Clifton that they pay attention to the way Jim, et al handle the administration of Organissimo--I think it is exemplary. I should also, in fairness, mention that I think Michael's decision to allow Organissimo discussions and updates on AAJ during emergencies deserves applause.

I couldn't agree more.

[Bright Moments]

that was interesting chris! thanks for posting it!

B-)

[JSngry]

If I read Crouch correctly, he's saying that JALC is important, not bacause it's making J stronger, but because it's making JALC stronger.

The implications are as horrific as they are obvious.

[bertrand]

What a windbag!

All I know about Wynton Marsalis is this: I don't like his music because everything I've heard (except for a couple of sideman dates) sounds absolutely wretched to my ears. Not lackluster, not weak, but actually WRETCHED and UGLY.

Very few jazz musicians have that effect on me (it's not like I'm picky or anything), so when I say it, I really mean it. And even if he weren't an asshole, I'd still feel that way about his music (although I'd probably feel a bit sorry for him).

Bertrand.

Edited December 1, 2004 by bertrand

[Use3D]

I no longer visit AAJ--It appears to me that Michael and Clifton have a bad, arrogant attitude that tends to alienate posters. They also have itchy delete-button fingers that go beyond maintaining decorum and into the realm of censorship. AAJ has become a rather unpleasant place to be and it is increasingly attracting a trollish element.

That's too bad. If anyone has major issues with anything around here I would like them to speak up. I don't want to alienate anyone, but I'm relieved to know there are worse moderators than me on the jazz-forum circuit, heh. :rsly:

[Joe G]

Congratulations: you're not the worst!

[wesbed]

Congratulations: you're not the worst!

I remember when we, from the BNBB, decided to land at the Harlem.Org site. Wayne wrote that he didn't "have time for riff raff. Not politics. Not sports."

Memories from Harlem.

I will not hesitate in closing threads, accounts, banning IP numbers. I want 90% of the people to have a good experience. I simply don't have time for riff raff.

Edited December 1, 2004 by wesbed

[catesta]

hehe B-)

[J.A.W.]

Congratulations: you're not the worst!

I remember when we, from the BNBB, decided to land at the Harlem.Org site. Wayne wrote that he didn't "have time for riff raff. Not politics. Not sports."

Memories from Harlem.

I will not hesitate in closing threads, accounts, banning IP numbers. I want 90% of the people to have a good experience. I simply don't have time for riff raff.

I'm amazed the Harlem.org site still exists

[Christiern]

J.A.W.: "I'm amazed the Harlem.org site still exists"

It's been in hibernation for a couple of years, I think. Too bad, because there are some serious jazz posters, especially of the historically-minded variety.

[AfricaBrass]

Congratulations: you're not the worst!

I remember when we, from the BNBB, decided to land at the Harlem.Org site. Wayne wrote that he didn't "have time for riff raff. Not politics. Not sports."

Memories from Harlem.

I will not hesitate in closing threads, accounts, banning IP numbers. I want 90% of the people to have a good experience. I simply don't have time for riff raff.

From the looks of it, if a moderator's underwear is too tight, then he/she deserves what you get....

The sounds of silence.

[Christiern]

Tell us, AB, what BBSs have you been frequenting?

[AfricaBrass]

Tell us, AB, what BBSs have you been frequenting?

Actually... since I play guitar I like to check out guitar bulletin boards.

I've run into a couple that are like little kingdoms, the worst being the www.fenderforum.com.

They'll ban you for just about anything. I should know... I got banned.

I have a lot of respect for Jim and Organissimo for being so fair with all of us.

[wesbed]

I've run into a couple that are like little kingdoms, the worst being the www.fenderforum.com.

They'll ban you for just about anything. I should know... I got banned.

Yeah, man, you're such an asshole on the Organissimo board.

Tee hee hee.

Edited December 1, 2004 by wesbed

[AfricaBrass]

[ghost of miles]

Enough of your merriment, AB!

Seriously, what'd they ban you for--brightening their day?