Warne Marsh: All Music - Nessa Records

[AllenLowe]

certainly, every 105 bars - but hey, who's counting?

[Quasimado]

That's quite a dis for a "worthwhile book"...

Better to look at what Ind believes to be the crux of the matter; the importance of really internalizing the "harmonic flow". It is this that gives rise to is Tristano's much misunderstood, but crucial, distinction between "feeling" (Id) and "emotion" (Ego).

This is THE timeless artistic reference point... (IMO)

Q.

[AllenLowe]

no one admires Tristano's music any more than I do (and I did spend an afternoon with him once, but that's another story) - what disturbs me (and maybe Larry - can't speak for him) is the cult around Tristano, the fear of criticism, the Jim Jones- like adulation - as a matter of fact, I understand it, as I found him damn scary (I was only 23 or so) and would likely have taken that kool-aid if he'd asked me - I prefer John LaPorta's very clear-headed assessment of Lennie in LaPorta's autobiography -

[BruceH]

Mmmmm....kool-aid....

[Larry Kart]

Quasimodo -- I don't understand. Didn't you think the book could have benefited from better editing and proof-reading? Don't you find it odd that Ind thinks of Mingus's music as being among the more "commercial aspects" of jazz? (BTW, my "My God" after Ind's account of "Turkish Mambo" was not intended to be the least bit ironic -- it was said in awe, primarily of what Tristano had created here, of course, but also of Ind's ability to accurately and clearly describe the complexities of "Turkish Mambo.") Finally, I agree that Ind does speak eloquently about "the importance of really internalizing the 'harmonic flow,'" but this is a theme that other Tristano students (Marsh, Konitz, Ted Brown) have addressed before.

As for Ind's portrait of Tristano the man (which jibes with the accounts of many other insiders) versus that of John LaPorta (which Allen Lowe mentioned, and which jibes with the response to Tristano of a good many other people who had significant contact with Tristano but eventually distanced themselves from the inner circle) --first, I have no direct experience of Tristano the man myself; second, LaPorta's book makes it clear that he himself could be quite an odd customer ("imperfectly socialized," to use a phrase that used to be thrown around a lot in the '50s). Thus, while I trust that LaPorta's verbatim accounts of his static-filled lessons with Tristano are just that, verbatim (LaPorta, for one, does not seem to me to be a man who would or even could make such dialogue), that very same (unsocialized, if you will) aggressively literal strain in LaPorta's personality makes his run-ins with Tristano's intransigence (however aesthetically accurate or pedagogically well-intended Tristano's remarks might have been) read like a head-butting contest between two billy goats, with LaPorta being too naive (though "naive" is not quite the right term) to grasp that he ought to bow his head and retire.

[DukeCity]

Don't you find it odd that Ind thinks of Mingus's music as being among the more "commercial aspects" of jazz?

←

Don't know much about Ind's writing, or about Tristano, but I happened to be reading an interview with Chuck Nessa on AAJ regarding the early Mingus sides that Chuck co-produced. The topic of commercial appeal was broached:

AAJ: What do you think is the single clearest insight this group of recordings has given you regarding the music of Mingus? It's described in one part of the booklet as "the genesis of his later masterpieces."

CN: It's sort of all over the place...I'll put it this way: you have to understand the sort of sociology of L.A. at the time, what the independent recording scene was like and was saleable. So the early recordings are sort of modeled after other Central Avenue jump band good time music, because you could get a record date doing that sort of thing. But Mingus would always do something to push it a little further, to get himself out there a little more. Such as some unusual original compositions, or whatever: he'd slip in one out of the three, whatever, just trying to get his own music out there.

Doesn't really make anyone's case in the discussion on this thread. Just thought it was interesting. Carry on...

[AllenLowe]

I'll only add this to Larry's comment - I spent approximately 2 hours with Tristano, trying to interview him (not sure of the date but it must have been 1976-77); he was scary, had an aura of the type I have only read about in accounts of certain kinds of cult leaders whose strength of personality and ability to read people makes them want to please them - it's hard to explain well, but it was a bizarre and somewhat scary experience for me (I was maybe 22 or 23); I felt as if he could read my every move, sense what I was thinking. It was fascinating at first, because this was LENNIE TRISTANO, a guy I had dreamed of meeting - but after a while I just wanted to get out of there because he was so damned controlling. And in retrospect I can see how so powerful a personality could have an effect on people who tend to be socially unformed (ie. jazz musicians), fragile of ego, brilliant but insecure -

[Quasimado]

OK Larry, I can see your point(s). I doubt, however, if any editor would have been able to persade Ind to drop references to Reich (which some may feel weakens his general thesis). As you know, he has always been outspoken concerning him, so I can't imagine him not including him and his influence on himself and others associated with LT at the time. The Mingus thing, well, I would have thought that his Atlantics WERE comparatively successful, and that Ind thought they were trying to capitalize on that, rather than developing the relationship with Lennie. Concerning LT himself, I had a friend who worked with him for several years, and his impressions of the man pretty much substantuate Ind's. Finally, while the others may have spoken in general terms about Tristano's teaching and philosophy, Ind's account made it fall into place, for me, at least ...

so I'm ready to overlook areas that may irritate others.

Q.

[Larry Kart]

Quasimado -- As a former editor, perhaps I'm more sensitive to such things. My wife often tells me to shut-up when I pounce on typos and other errors in the morning paper. I garee that the Reich material had to be there -- it's essential to who Ind is. BTW, do you have the album Ind made on his label of just solo walking bass lines? It's one of the great examples, I think of how harmony can become rhythm and vice versa. That is, Ind's time is great, but one of the reasons the lines swing so much is the way the pitches he chooses tug one way or another within the harmonic flow (or as like to think of it, the gravitational field) -- a harmonic flow that, of course, Ind's own lines are creating. It's like Bach -- or Jimmy Raney.

BTW, from that point of view, it's sad to me that Ind in his book is so dead set against the so-called avant-garde. While I can understand why that would be so in generational terms and in terms of some aspects of musical style (his own and that of some avant-gardists), I would think that Ind would be perfectly well-attuned to hearing the way Ornette, for one, can at once create his own harmonic flow and work meaningful variations upon it.

[Larry Kart]

I "garee"? Must be lysdexic.

[AllenLowe]

1) anybody want to buy an orgone box?

2) Interesting about Ind's hate of the avant garde - I once did a talk for a jazz seminar called: "Who Hates What And Why?" and it was about the generation of 1950s jazz progressives who hated the post-Ornette generation. It was prompted by a long interview I did with Johnny Carisi at which he displayed a huge amount of hostility for "free" players - I think the problem was that the 1950s guys had more of a traditional theoretical basis for what they did, almost an academic slant to justify and explain their ideas. It always bothered me, as I liked Carisi a alot personally, and I wished he could be more open to this kind of change. And I will add that in addition to the theoretical rejection of the new music, there may have been a racial resentment, as Carisi and his fellow '50s progessives, largely white, were really pushed aside in the 1960s and were often told how irrelevant and un-influential they were.

[jazz4u]

Wow, look what I started. Pete, sorry for the misspelling.

-Jp

[Quasimado]

Larry, yeah, I used to practice to that. To my ears, the rhythm section on "The Real Lee Konitz" (Bauer, Ind, Dick Scott), when they start to flow (Melancholy Baby) is one of the best I have heard, subtle but driving ...

Re Ornette, I think Allen hits it when he talks of the resentment among many of the 50's musicians. Herb Geller is another who blasts Ornette in *50's Jazz Talk*, and he was well schooled, coming up through the big bands like so many others, where you had to be able to play in the orthodox way. The people around LT at the time were devoted to perfecting their improvisional techniques for stretching out on the standard forms, so they naturally had little time for a *primitive* like Ornette ...

Q.