Pat Metheny, leader and sideman

[Alon Marcus]

I think he is an important jazz guitarist. Another link in the long chain that include Christian, Django, Wes, Jim Hall etc.

I would say that my favorite Metheny albums are the ones where he plays and improvises a lot, like his trios, the duet with Hall and his sideman contributions to records with Kenny Garrett, Michael Brecker, Ornette Coleman and Joshua Redman.

His group is nice too mostly for terific compositions and interesting small group arrangements, but he really stretches out less with the group.

What do you think about this guy?

What are your favorite Metheny albums?

Do you think he is overrated or underrarted when talking about his contribution to jazz guitar and composition?

Did you hear his weird projects, among them the double album with Derek Baily?

Edited December 16, 2004 by ztrauq22

[CJ Shearn]

I'm a biased Metheny fan. Noewadays as I've become more critical of his output, I prefer the PMG albums, then the recent trio projects and not as much of the really out stuff, although it can be fine in moderation (e.g. albums with one or two out cuts)

[Joe G]

Discussed at length here.

To answer your questions, I think he's definitely one of the greats of guitar in general, and certainly a very versatile musician. He's been a major influence in my approach to music and the guitar, though lately I haven't been listening to him much. My favorite albums, in no particular order, are

Question & Answer, Bright Size Life, Rejoicing, First Circle, Live in Europe, Secret Story, Missouri Sky; and the sideman stuff with Brecker, Gary Thomas, Sco, and J. Redman contained some excellent music, too. I didn't think he was a great match with Garrett, personally. I'm looking forward to the new one; I thought the last Group album/tour was the best in many years.

The only "weird" project I've listened to at length was Song X. I do hear it, and I like it.

I'm not going to touch the overrated/underrated question.

[Guest akanalog]

i like "blue asphalt", a bootleg CD i have from 1977. i also have the same material on an ECM record called i think just "pat metheny live".

has a good version of that song "wrong is right" which larry coryell does so well on "spaces".

i played "blue asphalt" in the car with my dad the other day. my dad likes phish and keith jarrett so i figured he would dig the metheny but he told me it soudned like "new age dreck". and this is early pat metheny so i can't imagine what he would think about later stuff.

personally i think he is ok-i think his tone and his compositions are a bit cheesy and i feel the same way about his main conspirator, lyle mays.

i sort of like some of pat's early sideman stuff like gary burton's "passengers'. he sounds good-fits in well. however, his compositions are generally the cheesiest on the albums. poppy and wimpy tunes.

[Joe G]

Some of it, yea. He likes the Beatles, the Carpenters, James Taylor, and Burt Bacharach, so that stuff crops up from time to time. I didn't say I liked all of it.

[pryan]

I'm a biased Metheny fan. Noewadays as I've become more critical of his output, I prefer the PMG albums, then the recent trio projects and not as much of the really out stuff, although it can be fine in moderation (e.g. albums with one or two out cuts)

I like TRIO 99-00, which is the only Metheny album in my collection. My dad is a big PMG fan, however. That stuff just doesn't connect with me that much, I'm not sure why.

[Tom in RI]

I used to avoid Pat Metehny out of some kind of misguided bias against anything not hard bop. Lucky for me I tried Question and Answer. Since then I've enjoyed a lot of his trio efforts, still haven't warmed up to his PMG discs. As a sideman I liked his work on Marc Johnson's Sound of Summer Running alongside Bill Frisell. The date with John Scofield "I Can See Your House From Here" was a surprise for how loud andr ock influenced it is, I have it but haven't listened to it for awhile.

[Alon Marcus]

I like TRIO 99-00, which is the only Metheny album in my collection. My dad is a big PMG fan, however. That stuff just doesn't connect with me that much, I'm not sure why.

Try to listen to a double album of the same trio live. I actually heard them live 4 years ago.

[sal]

I like TRIO 99-00, which is the only Metheny album in my collection.  My dad is a big PMG fan, however.  That stuff just doesn't connect with me that much, I'm not sure why.

Try to listen to a double album of the same trio live. I actually heard them live 4 years ago.

Yeah, "Trio Live" is a real good one.

[CJ Shearn]

so Joe, whaddaya think of that full excerpt of a section of part 1?

[Jazzmoose]

Well, with CJ here, I won't even try to claim the title of 'biggest Pat Metheny fan', but I'm certainly a fan of his work. Let's put it this way: his space on my shelves rivals that of Miles, Monk, Coltrane and such, plus he was my pathway into jazz in the first place. So I'd say I probably like him more than most around here.

As far as a favorite, it really depends on my mood. What I consider his best one day may not make the top third another, you know? There's a lot of variety in his work, after all. It's not like grabbing a Blue Note hard bop artist where consistency of material is the key (which is not to say that this is the case for all Blue Note hard bop artists!). I'd say the one that gets the most play for me is Offramp. But that doesn't necessarily mean I consider it his best, or even my favorite.

As for his sideman appearances, I really like his work on Redman's Wish.

Edited December 16, 2004 by Jazzmoose

[Tom in RI]

Hey Jazzmoose, agreed on Metheny's work on Wish. At least 3 lives dates of this band and tour circulate and the two I have heard are pretty good.

[CJ Shearn]

yep, Pat takes a quarter to half of a space on my shelf followed by Miles.

[gdogus]

Just to reiterate, underscore, emphasize, and/or redundanate - I like the trio stuff best:

As leader:

Bright Size Life (with Jaco Pastorius and Bob Moses)

Rejoicing (with Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins)

Question and Answer (with Dave Holland and Roy Haynes)

Trio Live (with Larry Grenadier and Bill Stewart)

As sideman:

Joshua Redman - Wish (with Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins; interesting to compare with the same rhythm section on Metheny's Rejoicing)

[Joe G]

Yep, great straightahead playing from Pat on Wish. I think it has a lot to do with the drummer. For me, Haynes, Higgins, and DeJohnette bring out the best in him.

CJ, I thought the excerpt was... interesting. Sorry, that's all I can give you right now, after one listen. I was in a somewhat funky mood that day, too.

[PHILLYQ]

I love 'Question & Answer', "Song X', the live trio 2-disc. Some of his stuff just leaves me cold,though. I went to see him live about 20 years ago, and I walked out- it was cheesy-every-tune-sounds-the-same boring. Now, if he's playing in a trio, I'd want to go.

[Rooster_Ties]

I love 'Question & Answer', "Song X', the live trio 2-disc. Some of his stuff just leaves me cold,though. I went to see him live about 20 years ago, and I walked out- it was cheesy-every-tune-sounds-the-same boring. Now, if he's playing in a trio, I'd want to go.

I could have said damn near the exact same thing. If fact, I will... ...seriously...

I've still got "Q&A" and "Song X", and I just never got around to picking up the live trio disc (though I'm sure I'd like it).

But everything else I've heard from the man leaves me pretty cold too, especially the PMG stuff. (Sorry)

And just like PhillyQ, I went to a live show of his (here at the Kansas City Blues and Jazz Fest, circa 1995 or maybe 1996), and I left after about two or three tunes.

He's clearly got chops a mile wide -- and sometimes (like on "Q&A"), they're a mile "deep" too (what he says with them). But on most of the things I've heard from Metheny, they're a mile wide, and maybe a couple feet "deep" -- at least to my ears.

(Again, sorry. I know lots here are big fans.)

But I love "Q&A" and when I'm in the right mood, "Song X" too.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Joe G]

No biggie.

[CJ Shearn]

I advise everyone to check the new Group disc next month, and the DeJohnette/Hancock/Holland/Metheny in Concert DVD or tape. Very good stuff. How come no talk of "80/81" or "As Falls Wichita"? great albums.

[Alon Marcus]

I love 80/81 but Whichita was a bit boring for me.

[CJ Shearn]

really? how so?

[CJ Shearn]

oh, and Joe, I almost find "Question and Answer" too difficulta listen at times. The playing by Metheny/Holland/Haynes on that album is absolutely brilliant, but I feel theres almost too much information packed into each tune, the playing is at such a high level that there are so many inner dialogues going on at once. I prefer "Trio 99-00" and "Trio Live". Just a matter of personal taste I guess. If you have any tips on how to approach listening to Q&A, that would be cool.

Edited December 17, 2004 by CJ Shearn

[Alon Marcus]

really? how so?

80/81 is adventurous and has very good compositions. It's probably one of Metheny's best. Dewey Redman and Brecker both play important roles. They are great improvisers. Metheny sounds inspired.

Wichita is more dreamy and calm. I know many like this kind of tranquill feel but I miss the fire in 80/81. Wichita is more like somekind of prog rock or new age or whatever. It's less jazzy.

Edited December 17, 2004 by ztrauq22

[Alon Marcus]

If you have any tips on how to approach listening to Q&A, that would be cool.

Q&A is quite a challenging album. It has some classics played in a neckbreaking tempo like Solar and All the things you are. If you can't enjoy these versions maybe you should try to look for other performances of the tunes. Metheny's playing is very assymetrical and free, often breaking the regular rhythm and crossing harmonies. It's really challenging to keep track of what he is doing there but it's always logical and rewarding.

H&H is actually a very fast blues when you listen carefully to the changes during the improvisations.

"Law years" is a Coleman classic. Metheny follows the concepts of Ornette's groups in the end of the fifties. The improvisation is based on the melody but not on specific chord changes.

"Never too far away" and "Change of heart" are melodic and very enjoyable. Sure you don't have a problem with them. The same for the elegant version of "Old Folks".

Edited December 17, 2004 by ztrauq22

[CJ Shearn]

thanks, I'll keep that in mind next time I pull it out. Q&A is almost like a session where we are just listening to musicians playing for themselves, like we're flies on the wall of a very intimate session. "Trio 99-00" was made in a similar manner (not intended for release, three guys just sorta jamming on things) but its more warm, like they want to invite you in more. But with all that said, musically, "Q&A" is great, just really challenging.