How many SACD's or SACD/Hybrids do you own?

[Bill Nelson]

Okay, we've heard from two guys about their tube-amp improvements which make their redbook normal CDs sound "so flipping good".

DrJ has a tube amp and DAC which does this.

Jazzbo's got a tube-output CD player.

So what's the deal on these and why are they so much better?

What are the brands/models which make it happen?

[wolff]

Okay, we've heard from two guys about their tube-amp improvements which make their redbook normal CDs sound "so flipping good".

DrJ has a tube amp and DAC which does this.

Jazzbo's got a tube-output CD player.

So what's the deal on these and why are they so much better?

What are the brands/models which make it happen?

Tube gear can sound more musical or lifelike. Less like a machine and more like music.

It can come down to taste, also. To them their stuff sounds better. YMMV

If I was to quickly generalize on why they may be better, I'd say this:

Small companies.

Each unit carefully designed and listened to.

Parts picked for quality sound reproduction, not picked to save pennies.

Dedicated listening rooms with attention to detail.

DRJ's stuff is made by Audio Note and Jazzbo's by Decware.

[Late]

I only have one, the SACD hybrid of Gil Evans & Ten. Sounds fantastic — and I've only heard the CD layer (and will probably never get to hear the SACD layer). If you have an ear for Evans' work, I'd recommend this one, as the SACD hybrid version presents the only edition of this recording in true stereo — as the original master tapes, presumed lost, were discovered prior to this new remastering (by Joe Tarantino). Paul Chambers bass never quite sounded like this ...

I purchased my copy here for $14.97 (shipping included). Seems a pretty fair price.

Can anyone point out a link or list of jazz SACD hybrids? I probably won't buy to upgrade, but if there are any titles I don't have ...

[jazzbo]

Bill, my disc player has been modified to completely bypass the stock output stage and has a powerful tubed output stage coming right off the DAC. It feeds directly two "single-ended" monoblock tubed amplifiers using EL34 tubes that are hand-built, star-grounded, only have one resistor and one capacitor in the signal path (the resistor is tied to a volume pot that allows you to use this without any preamp stage, thereby bypassing a whole lot of other parts and wire). My speakers are an unusual type with an inverted horizontal driver that disperses sound in a 360* radial pattern. The disc player, the amps and the speaker are all by the same designer and builder. All are designed to "get out of the way" of the music, and though that is an impossible task, they try hard. . . .

Some time ago when I quit playing in bands I began to focus on musical playback in my home and trying to recreate music as realistically and musically as I could, and this has been an interesting journey. . . . A mixed blessing, but with some really marvelous listening along the way. Owning a vintage fifties stereo tube integrated opened my ears to tubes and their musical potential, and I became interested in "single-ended amplifiers" which were mostly too expensive for me to buy until I found Decware. I've also settled on Mapleshade Records brass cones, maple platforms and system rack, and power conditioning and interconnects and speaker cables by PS Audio, and the system really satisfies ME. It may not satisfy others.

If interested, here is a link to the Decware catalog page:

Decware Amps, Speakers and more

[jazzmessenger]

I voted for 0. But now I think of it, I may own a couple of hybrid CDs. I am not buying SACD until the whole market is going in that direction.

[Alfred]

I only have 10-20 SACD but no player. Because multichannel is no big thing for me as a jazz fan I'm not sure if I will ever buy me a SACD-player.

[mikeweil]

Can anyone point out a link or list of jazz SACD hybrids? I probably won't buy to upgrade, but if there are any titles I don't have ...

Try SA-CD.net.

Edited December 17, 2004 by mikeweil

[Late]

Try SA-CD.net.

Thanks, Mike.

For starters, here's a list of Fantasy's SACD Hybrids.

And here's Analogue Production's list of hybrid SACDs.

Darn, I thought Everybody Digs Bill Evans had made it to hybrid SACD. Has it? If not, I'll keep waiting ...

[DrJ]

Bill Nelson  Posted on Dec 15 2004, 11:54 PM

  Okay, we've heard from two guys about their tube-amp improvements which make their redbook normal CDs sound "so flipping good".

DrJ has a tube amp and DAC which does this.

Jazzbo's got a tube-output CD player.

So what's the deal on these and why are they so much better?

What are the brands/models which make it happen?

Chiming in about my tube gear:

First and foremost, wolff is right - I love the sound, and there's very little question that you get less ear fatigue with tube gear, but you may not like it. As I said, GO LISTEN to both solid state and tube stuff and decide for yourself.

Now, about my Audio Note set up. As wolff indicated, their gear includes high quality parts at every step of the way; my amp (integrated model, Meishu) has a single ended triode tube output, a sound that I love (lots of articles on the web to describe how this differs from other tube configurations); and for the DAC (2.1 signature model), their "1x oversampling" philosophy, which eschews the industry trend of CD players that use computer algorithms to up/oversample discs in an effort to try and compensate for their shortcomings. In the 1x approach, you get exactly what's on the disc, no over/upsampling, and I have to say that my ears tell me this is definitely the way to go. Again I think it only works if you have very high quality electronics throughout the chain though.

FWIW I also went with Audio Note interconnects, which are silver and I've never heard anything come close...fantastic. And finally, a relatively inexpensive Audio Note Zero transport (that will be upgraded in the future), and Zingali Overture .2s speakers - which are fantastic paired with this set up, very sensitive, "tube friendly" speakers. All of this sits on a Mapleshade Samson rack.

You might check out: www.audionote.co.uk

www.zingali.it

www.mapleshaderecords.com

Forgot the "power conditioner" - Richard Gray 400 MKII (actually not really how it works, unlike most of these devices no current flows through the device but rather it delivers consistent power directly to any gear on the same circuit...you can read about it at the site if you're interested, www.richardgrayspowercompany.com)

I'm not trying to sell any of this gear, though...again, LISTEN. There are an infinite number of great set-ups out there, many of which probably cost less. Just LISTEN though, and decide based on that rather than specs. For example, for people who want mega-high output and floor shaking bass response, my rig would not be their choice...but for my very small listening room and listening habits (mostly acoustic jazz), it's ideal.

Also, I have a tube gear dealer right here in Sacramento that carries these products as well as others...he's spent years experimenting with matching amps to speakers, finding the best DACs to go with them, etc...so I was lucky to be able to benefit from that and listen to his various set-ups. Having someone who can service tubes that go out etc is very nice.

Edited December 18, 2004 by DrJ

[Kevin Bresnahan]

This is the second person to recommend Mapleshade recently. I have to interject that the guy running Mapleshade is an absolute thief. I will not give that guy another cent of my money. There was a thread over on Jazz Corner with several Mapleshade recording artists who have been and continue to be ripped off by that guy. I'm boycotting them.

It's too bad because Norris Turney's "Big, Sweet & Blue" is a great date.

Later,

Kevin

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

This is the second person to recommend Mapleshade recently. I have to interject that the guy running Mapleshade is an absolute thief. I will not give that guy another cent of my money. There was a thread over on Jazz Corner with several Mapleshade recording artists who have been and continue to be ripped off by that guy. I'm boycotting them.

Kevin

Although the one guy over at JC is slightly off the mark (Sprey did not design anything while over at the Pentagon....had nothing to do with anti-tank rounds & there was no 'A-1 Bomber') his overall comments are not surprising....you should hear what some of the guys who worked with him back in the early 80's on various defense-related projects have to say about him. It's impossible to begin to estimate the number of long knives that are out for that duplicitous character.

[DrJ]

Never knew about that, but I have to say that I got fantastic service personally from Mapleshade...very knowledgeable staff, friendly, worked with me to design a slightly customized configuration that fit my system, delivered in great shape as scheduled, etc. There are two sides to every story, and ultimately I can only judge them based on my contact.

[Late]

Anyone care to post their thoughts/reviews on any of the Bill Evans' hybrid SACDs? (Or link to a review?)

Thanks!

[Edward]

Anyone care to post their thoughts/reviews on any of the Bill Evans' hybrid SACDs? (Or link to a review?)

Thanks!

Late, try here: Bill Evans SACD reviews

I have close to 100 SACD's, about a 1/4 of them being either Bob Dylan or Rolling Stones ABKCO reissues. The original Rolling Stones ABKCO releases had been around for some time, and I was more than willing to shell out a little cash for hybrids with much improved sound. Indeed, Tower has sold these reissues for $9.99 each at least twice during the past year or so. Hell, if EMI were to ever reissue the Beatles catalog on hybrids for $18.99 list, I would gobble them up. As it is, Beatles CD's currently list for $18.99 even though they are early generation masters.

Sony-Columbia would have done well to sell their Bob Dylan hybrids for a few dollars less and forgo the CD-only remastered series. I lot of people were looking forward to Dylan's catalog being remastered, but now there seems to be little reason for anyone other than the committed to purchase the more expensive hybrids.

I well understand the sentiment of those reluctant to purchase the same albums yet again on the SACD format. Fortunately, I have been able to purchase a number of SACD's (particularly Fantasy jazz and classical releases) that I never owned before on another format.

Edited December 19, 2004 by Edward

[vibes]

Anyone care to post their thoughts/reviews on any of the Bill Evans' hybrid SACDs? (Or link to a review?)

Thanks!

I have the Analogue Productions "Moonbeams," and it's excellent - very realistic bass and drum sounds. The other SACD I have from them, Vince Guaraldi's "Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus" is also excellent. I've heard wonderful things about their other Bill Evans releases, and intend to pick them up.

[DrJ]

I have SUNDAY AT THE VILLAGE VANGUARD, Analogue Productions - of all the SACDs I own of vintage dates, I find their work to be the best. Both layers sound great.

[jazzbo]

Wow, well let's get busy boycotting about every jazz label then!

The products are fantastic. I don't know anything about the guy, and I sure don't believe everything I read at Jazz Corner. . . but the products are wonderful, and I'm glad I have them.

[porcy62]

I well understand the sentiment of those reluctant to purchase the same albums yet again on the SACD format. Fortunately, I have been able to purchase a number of SACD's (particularly Fantasy jazz and classical releases) that I never owned before on another format.

Exactly, why should I buy "Kind of Blue" if I have a Columbia first pressing or a Classic vinyl reissue or a Mosaic Lp set or a 24bit remastered cd? A part multichannel that I don't care, how much does the sound quality will improve with a SACD?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The products are fantastic. I don't know anything about the guy, and I sure don't believe everything I read at Jazz Corner. . . but the products are wonderful, and I'm glad I have them.

Re: Mapleshade

The thread at Jazz Corner discussing some of Sprey's dirty moves is here: http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/sh...read.php?t=4740.

In this thread, Jazz artists Frank Kimbrough details what Sprey has done to him. It is not rumors or heresay.

Later,

Kevin

PS: I'll paste in one of Frank's quotes to save people from opening my link.

To quote Frank Kimbrough from the thread:

"This label has been given too many passes - they routinely mislead their artists, and though they have paid mechanical royalties (after a couple calls from an attorney), they illegally deduct them from artist royalties in a "profit-sharing" arrangement which Sprey charmingly presents to the artist as a plus, but of which there are never any profits. I speak from experience, having done 15 sessions there between 1986 and 1992, most of which remain on his shelf. My latest indignity involving the label was having to hire an attorney in order to have a CD on which I appeared withdrawn from their catalog. It was released without my permisson, and I was never paid for the session (nobody ever is) or notified of its release, and never even received a copy of the CD. It was a CD by a saxophone quartet whose names weren't listed on the cover, but mine was, as were the other "accomplices" (this from the jacket), even though I only played on one 2 1/2 minute tune....misleading at best. Their "audiophile" recordings are done using two $50 PZM mics from Radio Shack, tweaked by Sprey's cronies from the Pentagon (he gave us the F-16 and A-1 bombers, and was a designer of anti-tank artillery). If you have a fortune invested in stereo equipment they may sound pretty good - otherwise we're talking pro-walkman quality, and no better. His sound absorbing materials include buckets of lead pellets, and I've been at sessions where the plywood sheet he puts over the drummer's head to direct the sound fell in the middle of a take - luckily the drummer wasn't injured. These guys are strictly bush-league, and in my opinion, a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. My advice to any musician considering a deal with them is to run as fast as possible in the opposite direction. And if you're a consumer who thinks that buying CDs on this label supports its artists, think again. I could go on, but I think I've made my point."

[jazzbo]

Okay. . . .Wow, sort of sounds like recording in Van Gelder's living room with his home-made equipment, doesn't it?

I don't buy his cds. I'm not crazy about their sound and the music is rarely that compelling. I've already bought all the isolation components I need from. They really WORK. I'm very happy about them.

Don't buy any Savoy or Roulette or anything that Reig or Cadena were involved in, or. . . ? Their recording methods were awful and they were crooks.

Edited December 20, 2004 by jazzbo

[Dan Gould]

As far as Mapleshade goes, I don't have the audiophile ears or equipment to weigh in on their techniques, but I am surprised to hear about their apparent business practices. What I am curious about is how someone like Larry Willis views them, since he seems to be on almost every recording, and I thought I heard he had some formal position with the company. Maybe he gets taken care of, so he doesn't care how the label treats other artists? Pretty sad, if that's the case.

[DrJ]

Yeah, Lon beat me to the punch - my comments exactly. If you limit yourself to buying recordings done by people/companies who treated the artists well, then I guess you'd exclude at least half of all jazz recorded before the 1980s. Kind of a silly notion given what I know about everyone's listening and collecting habits from this board (e.g. people raving about stuff like Strata East recordings - see Chuck's comments about their business practices - and the Savoys as Lon points out - etc etc etc), although this guy does sound like he's probably a big jerk.

FWIW, I own exactly one Mapleshade recording, LIVE AT ETHELL'S by Clifford Jordan, which is outstandingly well-recorded (not just my opinion, many have raved about it on this board and it won all kinds of critical accolades and awards - so I doubt they "fooled" all of us), and that I bought used.

The Mapleshade Samson rack is a quality product, no question - zero vibration, excellent craftsmanship, and it looks nice too. Personally I think a lot of the tweaker stuff they sell does sound suspiciously like snake oil, but much of it, including the conepoints (my Samson has these at the bottm) and isoblocks (under my amp stand) are definitely not. His being an idiot doesn't negate any of that.

I greatly respect Frank Kimbrough and his opinion, and will in fact think twice about buying any of Mapleshade's recordings (honestly none are on my radar screen right now anyway), but again going by my experience with them, as a buyer of audio accessories, they were a nice company to deal with and delivered a quality product as promised.

[bary01]

I got one

" Somethin Else " on Classic 24-96 DAD .

When i play the cd on my computer ( a dvd player is on my wish list for xmas .. ) , the sound is not better than my Deep Groove LP (thanks XP )

I bought this CD because I need all the reissue of the BLP 1595 for my Cannonball museum !!

I have 10 reissue of this LP , i'm stupid !!!

Happy Xmas , Joyeux Noel for all the organissimo member

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I got one " Somethin Else " on Classic 24-96 DAD .

While these are generally considered high resolution technology, they're not technically SACDs. These Classics discs actually utilize DVD video technology to reproduce the audio using the 24 bit/ 96 kHz decoder that's in every DVD video machine. They're one step "below" DVD-Audio technology. I use quotes because there are some fans of the sound of the audio from DVD videos.

I have several of these Classics DAD discs. I find some of them to be a bit bright for my ears. Mobley's "Roll Call" is one of them. I prefer the TOCJ CD to the DAD. In fact, I think I'd even say that the US RVG CD sounds on par with the Classics DAD.

FWIW, if you like the sound of these Classics DAD discs, grab all you can find now. They've been deleted and Classics does not plan to make any more in the future. They've switched over to SACD.

Later,

Kevin

[Claude]

To take advantage of the potential of DADs (superior resolution compared to CDs), you will need a high quality DVD player. There is no point in playing audiophile discs on a PC or a $100 CD or DVD player.

My preferred version of Somethin' else is the MFSL CD, which you also have I assume