Artists who recorded mostly later in life...

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, Von Freeman didn't record as a leader (at least not a full album, anyway), until he was about 50. And he didn't record much before that (hardly any at all, far as I know), even as a sideman.

OK, who else was criminally under-recorded in their early years??? (And I'm not just talking about as a leader – but minimal recording as a sideman too. BUT, I'm looking for people who went on to record at least a fair bit later in life (even if just for small labels / regional labels), either as a leader, or as an important sideman.

So, then, this thread isn't supposed to be about the "James Spauldings" of the world - since he recorded a whole bunch as a sideman early on (even if he didn't get to lead until later).

Who's playing is MUCH more interesting than the volume of their early recorded output would tend to indicate??? (People with very few recordings before they were about 40, or even closer to 50??.)

And what are some of their "must have" recordings?? -- either their few recordings back when they were young, or more recent stuff (And mention specific releases too, if you please -- thanks!!!) This is particularly for the more obscure people who might get mentioned in this thread, like the piano-guy I'm about to mention down below, in the "PS".

Side thought: I suppose Sun Ra would qualify for this thread, since he was damn near 40 before he ever even recorded for the first time. (We probably don't need to go into his recorded output much here, since that's an entire thread's worth of discussion right there.) But the "why's" and impact of his not recording until he was 40 is certainly fair game here.

PS: Spontoonious played a CD of a piano trio for me a couple months ago -- I forget the cat's name (and the label the disc was on -- maybe somebody/something out of the Washington D.C. area??? -- my memory is very foggy about this). It was something Spontoon got hipped to on this board, from Jim Sangry I think. I'm guessing the piano player on this date might very well fit the bill of this thread. Don't even know where to begin searching for the name, so I'll ask Spontoonious the next time I e-mail him (or maybe Jim knows who I'm talking about).

The recording was relatively recent (90's, late 90's even??), and the guy passed away recently too (if I remember right). And although the disc was mostly or nearly all standards – harmonically and rhythmically, the guy was sometimes a bit far left of center. Nothing that would scare most people off (casual listeners), but if you listened closely -- it was some pretty whack shit in its own way, if I remember right. (Kinda reminded me of that early, early pre-BN Andrew Hill date "So In Love", from the late 50's.) Was there a killer "Body and Soul" as the last track on the disc maybe??? (What little details I can remember, and even more important details I can forget!!!)

Edited November 12, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[ghost of miles]

Freeman was the first that came to mind... Lucky Roberts?

[Rooster_Ties]

Looking at Von's brother George's discography on the AMG, it sounds like he would qualify for this thread.

Also, I was about to mention Marcus Belgrave, maybe, but it appears he did record a slight bit more in the 50's and 60's than I was remembering. Still, he's kinda sorta similar to what I'm looking for --- people who are easy to overlook, since they didn't record all that much early on.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Buck Hill & Fred Anderson.

[JSngry]

Tom, are you referring to Frank Hewitt?

Definitely fits the bill.

[Rooster_Ties]

Tom, are you referring to Frank Hewitt?

Definitely fits the bill.

Yeup, that's that one. This is the disc Spontoonious brought over a couple months ago.

[.:.impossible]

Fred Anderson was the first person who came to mind. Seems like Kidd Jordan would fit into this category as well.

[jlhoots]

Perhaps Perry Robinson.

Of course he hasn't recorded that much later in life either.

[WD45]

Henry Grimes? I see he has another release out soon.

[John L]

Of course, there are always King Oliver, Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson, Big Eye Nelson, and so on. It would be fantastic to hear what they sounded like at an earlier age.

Herbie Nichols was over 30 before he got a chance to record. Ornette was almost 30.

Then again, today we have "young lions" who are over 40.

Edited December 2, 2004 by John L

[danasgoodstuff]

I almost qualify myself since I now have a CDR of my sideman gig with Perry Robinson sitting in (along with a couple of other Sound Sunday Pleasure gigs). I just turned 50. Now I am mostly off mic and nothing special when you can hear me, but still...

seriously, my vote for the guy I'd most like to hear a few years earlier than the first recordings we have is Lester Young...didn't he claim to have done something round 1932?

[Jeffro]

Bop trumpter Red Rodney and pianist Jimmy Amadie are two that come to mind. Rodney recorded a few albums as a leader in the 1940s and 1950s, spent most of the 1950s in jail, and after kicking a heroin habit, staged a comeback, beginning in the 1970s, during which he did most of his recordings. I've always thought that his story would make a great biography or movie.

Amadie began his career in the 1950s but had to stop playing almost entirely due to severe tendonitis. Only recently has he been able to record. Another great story, one of heroic and painful effort by a man who obviously loves his craft

Edited December 2, 2004 by Jeffro

[EKE BBB]

Buddy Bolden!

Those cylinders were made very late in his life...

[danasgoodstuff]

Frank Morgan, only one date as a leader before his stay at club fed, correct?

[Larry Kart]

Another classy Chicago tenorman, Eddie Johnson, whose only album AFAIK, "Indian Summer," was recorded by Chuck Nessa in 1981, when Johnson was 60.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I'm flabbergasted at the mention of Perry Robinson in this context.

How on earth is he under-recorded (later in life)? Please see the discography on my website. I mean, sure, we'd love more, but he's *constantly* doing recordings and they're being issued. I can't keep up with him he's so prolific. And Perry was a *leader* in 1962 (he was 23). Under-recognized, fine, but he did and does record. And the material has been issued.

Henry Grimes? Is someone not getting the point of this thread? [next question: is it me?] Henry Grimes started recording back in 1957 (he was 22) and was steadily doing so all the way up until he moved to California in 1967.

One that I think IS worth mentioning is Sam Rivers who NEVER recorded in the 1950s, right? Appeared on that December 1961 Dameron session for Blue Note that remained unheard until 1999. Then he joined Miles Davis in 1964, one live album unheard until - when? And only in Japan at first, right? Then later on Heard 'Round The World. So his first session ISSUED at the time was Lifetime by Tony Williams from August 1964. At which point, Sam was about 40 years old, right? Look, Sam was born BEFORE Clifford Brown. He could have had significant documentation going back maybe even to the late 1940s.

BTW, the above is accurate - unless anyone has information on the two legendary recordings: with J. C. Higginbotham and Paul Gonsalves. These supposedly precede the Dameron date. Were they released? Dunno. It's a mystery.

Mike

[JSngry]

Another classy Chicago tenorman, Eddie Johnson, whose only album AFAIK, "Indian Summer," was recorded by Chuck Nessa in 1981, when Johnson was 60.

That is indeed a good one (as is he), but you'll perhaps be interested to know that he's just come out with a new one on Delmark (w/John Young aboard, no less):

[Chuck Nessa]

How about Hal Russell?

[mikeweil]

I think Melvin Rhyne would qualify.

He was born in 1936, recorded between 1959 and 1964 (four sessions with Wes Montgomery, one as a leader, and one unreleased with Eddie Harris), three tracks with Buddy Montgomery in 1969.

But starting in 1991, he recorded more than 20 CDs, among them 9 as a leader (two tracks more or less privately recorded with Jimmy Coe in 1987 were not issued until 1994).

[Rooster_Ties]

Louis Smith sorta fits the bill, I think. (Not 100%, but close enough to at least mention.)

Only two dates as a leader (the BN's in the late 50's), and maybe half a dozen more as a sideman (at least that's all I'm aware of) --- then nothing for two decades.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[danasgoodstuff]

Can't do the dates and numbers of sessions (a little help someone?) but I think Doc Cheatham would fit here.

[Д.Д.]

Wally Shoup

[Alfred]

I think Melvin Rhyne would qualify.

He was born in 1936, recorded between 1959 and 1964 (four sessions with Wes Montgomery, one as a leader, and one unreleased with Eddie Harris), three tracks with Buddy Montgomery in 1969.

But starting in 1991, he recorded more than 20 CDs, among them 9 as a leader (two tracks more or less privately recorded with Jimmy Coe in 1987 were not issued until 1994).

"The legend" released on the excellent Criss Cross label is a very good organ trio session. His first date as a leader after that long absence.

[robviti]

Another classy Chicago tenorman, Eddie Johnson, whose only album AFAIK, "Indian Summer," was recorded by Chuck Nessa in 1981, when Johnson was 60.

That is indeed a good one (as is he), but you'll perhaps be interested to know that he's just come out with a new one on Delmark (w/John Young aboard, no less):

←

eddie johnson appeared on quite a few recordings from the mid-forties to the early sixties, playing in bands led by louis jordan, cootie williams, james moody, leo parker, and duke ellington. he recorded as a leader a few times for the chess label from 1951-52. check out this billboard ad for his first single in 1951:

[Brownian Motion]

Trumpet player Lou Colombo

Vic Dickenson made very few records until the 1950s.

Trumpeter Frank Newton made his first records in 1929, played beautifully on Bessie Smith's last recording date in 1933--his second chance to record--and then wasn't heard from again until 1937 or '38.