SACD vs. CD comparison

[mmilovan]

Posted this in another forum, but found it interesting to have it here,

so:

I've read in nov. 2004 issue of Stereophile good article about bit-to-bit comparison of SACD vs. CD (it was newest Norah Jones album). It was sent by some enthusiastic reader/sound processiong engeneer, alongside with print-screens from Audacity and Sondforge re-printed in magazine.

As you can probably imagine frequency analysis, dynamic, range... etc. everything looks identical. Especially dynamic range so often emphasized in discussion about formats (you know those "you-can-FEEL-the-sound-of-musican's-breath..." etc...). The differences were, of course, in wider than 22 KHz CD limit freq. range filled with... you know what... warm, fresh, brilliant, mellow... NOISE!

OK, maybe my observations are bit amateurish, but I found this reading an interesting one.

Anyone read this article?

[GregK]

I don't know how accurate a comparison this is. I'm no expert, but I've read in other places that that particular SACD really has no difference between SACD and CD, like there was a mastering error or something. I can't recall the exact details, sorry. I have noticed though, on my average system, some great details highlighted by SACD. There is a noticeable difference on such rock recordings as Allman Brothers Eat a Peach and Fillmore East (you can really hear the separation of guitars on the SACD) and Derek and the Dominos Layla, and some of the Dylan ones.

[neveronfriday]

I was an avid reader of four major audiophile mags for years. One day I just stopped. The reasons were actually quite simple.

I was satisfied with my system (more an entry level system with somewhat audiophile qualities) as it is now and would have had to invest a lot more money to get to the next level. Also, I would have had to move, because my apartment's acoustic "traps" would have demanded a major investment to be overcome.

Secondly, reading too much of that stuff leads to an addiction which is just too expensive for me.

Thirdly, I started investing in music again. It's often been said, but not often enough: many of these audiophile people buy CDs just for some (sometimes assumed) superior sound ... they try to develop a taste for what they bought afterwards. It's something I've often seen and I can still check out regularly at my two fave shops which I visit when my cold turkey decision bites me in the butt. People drooling over the latest in ultimate sound quality ... and the music just sucks. Nothing against Chesky, for example, but a lot of their stuff is - from what I can see - an aquired taste for many.

I've spent quite some time comparing CDs and SACDs on everything from entry level to top-notch systems and, yes, there is a clearly audible difference (and also some real SACD botch jobs). But, my question has to be: is it worth it? Not right now, I think, not for me. Although my speakers are quite good, when I compare them to others which are way beyond my financial capabilities, they "subtract" half of the added SACD sonic quality, if not more. My amp would have to go as well, because it adds "warmth" where none would be needed anymore. Or I would have to rewire the whole setup for tons of money to achieve a more neutral sound for SACDs. And then there's the surround sound angle. I just don't want to build a house around 5 miles of cables. I'll just wait for the next generation surround sound headphones.

I just decided that I was happy with what I have now ... and that's it. Plus, I mostly listen to recordings from the 30s to the early 60s. I don't think I need those extra 10% of added audiophile quality. There are a lot of good-sounding CDs out there, and I think we will see a lot more popping up these coming years.

So, I'll just wait, buy the occasional playable-on-anything SACD and enjoy my Granz Jam sessions. They sound good enough to me.

And once in a while I buy one of the aforementioned mags and laugh about pages of charts that I used to drool over.

Cheers!

P.S.: My ears aren't exactly improving with all that loud drumming I'm doing either. Already now, although tests do not substantiate this, I can probably not even get as much out of an SACD as other people.

Edited November 24, 2004 by deus62

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Stereophile is rag, plain & simple. They have long equated $$$ with "the best sound" and they go out of thier way to back this mantra up with bogus product reviews.

I only own one SACD "dud" and that's Peter Gabriel's "Shaking the Tree". It is not that bad either, just not as good as it should be. Considering it's a greatest hits compilation, you would think the individual SACDs that also contain these tracks would sound the same but they don't. They sound great. I would guess that the remastering engineer screwed up... sound familiar?

[wolff]

I've always thought the real advantages of SACD would show up in performances recorded in DSD. Like what the Eighty Eights label is doing.

[mikeweil]

Too many factors play a part: If a tape is newly remastered for SACD it may (or should) sound better because of the advances in mastering techniques. I bought the Fantasy SACD remaster of Rollins' "The Sound of Sonny", and of course, it sounds better than the first 1987 CD remaster. Would have been disappointed if not.

In the case of Norah Jones, it is no wonder the signals are identical - it may have been recorded for SACD playback right away.

I basically agree with deus62' arguments - I upgraded my speakers just one notch this summer after 20 years, and it was a major improvement, but in the end it is the music that counts. If I ever win a million in a lottery, I will not hesitate to spend more than a few grand on top level equipment, but 'til then I rather buy new CDs - or SACDs ...

[GregK]

Are Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby and Village Vanguard available on SACD? If so, how do they sound?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Are Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby and Village Vanguard available on SACD? If so, how do they sound?

Both are on SACD from Analogue Productions (ironic label for this, eh?). They sound phenomenal. In fact, all of Analogue Productions SACDs sound phenomenal. Unfortunately, OJC got their hands on a DSD remastering bench so they no longer license out their masters to AP. I doubt they'll be any more.

FWIW, Mobile Fidelity is also doing great work in the SACD medium. Fantasy's work has been good but a few of their remasters show little improvement over the K2 CDs.

Later,

Kevin

[GregK]

Both are on SACD from Analogue Productions (ironic label for this, eh?). They sound phenomenal. In fact, all of Analogue Productions SACDs sound phenomenal. Unfortunately, OJC got their hands on a DSD remastering bench so they no longer license out their masters to AP. I doubt they'll be any more.

Later,

Kevin

I need to find these. I've always thought a piano trio like Evans' (or Keith Jarrett's) would sound great on SACD. You really need to hear the detail to appreciate such music, so I must find these

[Kevin Bresnahan]

There are 3 very reliable places that carry these SACDs. I've used all of them myself but today, I special order them at a local shop in Salem NH called Bull Moose Music. The 3 good ones are:

Music Direct

Red Trumpet

and

Acoustic Sounds

All of them ask $25 per disc but Red Trumpet always seems to have specials. I get them from Bull Moose for ~$19.

BTW, I think the Evans/Adderley SACD, "You Know What I Mean" is one of the best sounding SACDs in my collection. If you're into Evans and don't have this one, I'd recommend it over either of the Vanguard dates... well, I'm a huge Cannonball fan. Besides, the Vanguard dates, being live, can never match the sonics of the studio date.

Edit: I almost forgot http://www.cduniverse.com. Clunky to search this place but you can save a couple of bucks. They ship slow as molasses but most users seem to get what they order... eventually. Myself, I'd pay the extra couple of bucks and go with one of the others.

Kevin

Edited November 26, 2004 by Kevin Bresnahan

[GregK]

Thanks. Due to limited resources, I'm going to go with Sunday at the 'guard for now. I hear lots of praise for Red Trumpet, so I'll try them. Can't wait to hear it!!

[vibes]

If you like "Sunday at the Village Vanguard" on SACD, Analogue Productions also put out "Moonbeams," which I highly recommend.

[GregK]

This may be an ignorant question with an obvious answer, but I really don't know-is SACD supposed to approximate as closely as possible what we would be hearing if we had a reel-to-reel with the actual master tape lined up, with all the proper amplifiers, pre-amp, etc.?

[wolff]

This may be an ignorant question with an obvious answer, but I really don't know-is SACD supposed to approximate as closely as possible what we would be hearing if we had a reel-to-reel with the actual master tape lined up, with all the proper amplifiers, pre-amp, etc.?

I look at it as using a higher sampling rate...

A quick search found this simple explanation:

The CD uses 16 bit PCM recording technology at a 44.1KHz sampling rate. The frequency response of the CD is limited to 22.05KHz and its dynamic range is limited to 96dB. The SACD format is based on DSD-recording-technology, which uses 1-bit delta-sigma modulation and a sampling frequency that is 64 times higher than that of the CD. This enables the SACD format to offer a frequency response of 100KHz and a dynamic range of 120 dB across the audible range that allows for true reproduction of original source material without the omission of any naturally occurring sounds.

[Bluerein]

To add to the original question.....(or statement as you wish). Norah's album was (I suspect) recorded digitally (PCM 16 bit that is). You can proces this later to DSD but it's still 16 bit PCM what you hear (if you are lucky and the transfer did come out without a loss). So in fact they did a great job in transfering this music to DSD without loss (according to the graphs). The main reason to release this album on SACD is of course the 5.1 surround capacity this medium has. It was never intended to be an audiophile upgrade..........

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The main reason to release this album on SACD is of course the 5.1 surround capacity this medium has. It was never intended to be an audiophile upgrade..........

Well, that's not quite right... after all, the original SACD push did not even include multi-channel. It was hastily added after multi-channel DVD-Audio discs made their appearance. The first two generations of Sony SACD players did not have multi-channel playback capability and all of their first generation releases were stereo only. They had to reissue a lot of them with a multi-channel mix afterward.

Of course, this confused the heck out of the buyers, especially when they realized that many of the new discs had remastered stereo mixes that were better than the original "stereo only" SACDs. I sold my stereo SACD of "Kind of Blue" because the word on the web was that the multi-channel remaster had a much better stereo mix. I think it was over-stated (surprise! ) but it was different.

All of the Sony ads I've seen have advertised SACD as a high fidelity medium. Too bad it looks like it's dying. They've even started reissuing CDs of stuff that was already out on SACD hybrids (like the Dylan catalog). I wish Sony had stuck with it. SACD has given me some great listening moments. I think SACD has the best audio fidelity of any medium I have ever heard to date. Better than vinyl, better than reel-to-reel, better than CD and even better than DVD-Audio... although DVD-Audio does sound great too. I just don't have many detailed DVD-Audio discs. The DVD-Audio discs I have are mostly old rock. It's hard to hear nuances in old rock.

The SACD of Cannonball Adderley's "Know What I Mean?" makes it sound like Bill Evans is playing a piano in my living room.

Later,

Kevin

Edited November 26, 2004 by Kevin Bresnahan

[J.A.W.]

Too bad it looks like it's dying.

Hmm, pity Greg Maltz isn't around anymore (at least not here)

[porcy62]

Too bad it looks like it's dying.

Hmm, pity Greg Maltz isn't around anymore (at least not here)

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Greg posts over at Jazz Corner and the Audio Asylum. He knows that SACD is still a niche market and I bet even he will admit that Sony looks like they're letting it rot on the vine. He's not happy about it. He still buys SACDs from Japan and he has me thinking about ordering a couple from Hiroshi (Lester Young's Verve with Teddy Wilson).

The apparent demise of SACD is not a good thing in my opinion. Say what you will about Greg's methods but his only goal was to get more of us to buy SACD players to hear the sound for ourselves. Greg may have been extreme about it but it doesn't make the medium's failure a good thing. If people had simply tried to give this medium a try, maybe it would have been more successful.

Actually, a lot of the people who put down SACD really are "the problem" with SACD. It's not the technology, it's the economics. It's too bad they didn't want to hear their favorite music in the best possible sound. Now, they most likely won't be able to. They'll just have to enjoy their downloaded mp3s.

Later,

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Greg over on the Audio Asylum:

Christmas came early this year

Posted by Jazz Inmate ® on November 22, 2004 at 15:21:56

Got my Verve JSACDs today...Now's the Time (Bird), Pres & Teddy, and Stan Getz Plays. Two more hours and then I get to go home and warm up the tubes and feast my ears on these babies.

Must...resist...buying...more.

These weren't cheap.

>>> end of post <<<

Greg is right. These are not cheap. Hiroshi says he can get me the Lester Young and Getz discs for $70 delivered. That's a lot of dough. I worry that I'll order these and Verve will reissue them here in the US. Verve seems to be continuing SACD at a slow & sure pace. I just picked up a couple of their latest for $12.02. I can get almost 6 of these for the price of 2 from Japan. Decisions decisions.

Later,

Kevin

[rockefeller center]

Please give us an update on how GregM's CD spray is doing.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Please give us an update on how GregM's CD spray is doing.

I never read anything from Greg about a CD spray. Actually, I wouldn't read anything on any CD spray anyway... Placebo effect in my book.

FWIW, the one of the leading CD sprays has a warning not to use it on SACDs. Apparently, if you use it on your Analogue Productions SACDs, it may render them un-playable.

Later,

Kevin

[J.A.W.]

Kevin,

I was just kidding; I found Greg's attitude very unpleasant at times, but I have no interest in attacking him, and certainly not in his absence.

[porcy62]

If people had simply tried to give this medium a try, maybe it would have been more successful.

I don't want to start an argument here, but if Sony did a better job on it, putted more money for advertising and keep the prices lower than cds, more poeple would have been convinced about it, maybe not an hardcore vinyl fan like me, (I don't want to enter in an unfruitful discussion about what medium sounds better), but the average customers, because the success of a format is not on jazz and classical audiophile listener (that are a niche). If all the new musical issues would have been on Hybrid SACD, if if..., we all lost an occasion, but I blame Sony for that.

[porcy62]

If people had simply tried to give this medium a try, maybe it would have been more successful.

I don't want to start an argument here, but if Sony did a better job on it, putted more money for advertising and keep the prices lower than cds, more poeple would have been convinced about it, maybe not an hardcore vinyl fan like me, (I don't want to enter in an unfruitful discussion about what medium sounds better), but the average customers, because the success of a format is not on jazz and classical audiophile listener (that are a niche). If all the new musical issues would have been on Hybrid SACD, if if..., we all lost an occasion, but I blame Sony for that.

But I do start an argument, sorry about that!

Feel free to drop it, in Greg absentia.