Why didn't Wes Montgomery join the MJQ?

[Popper Lou]

Anyone know why Wes past up making it the Moden Jazz Quintet? From what I ready recently, he was offered to join the band.

[Hardbopjazz]

I believe he wanted to be close to home. He had, I believe 5 kids.

[mikeweil]

He may have shied away from the touring schedule - he suffered from fear of flying (is that the correct expression?).

Beyond that, he had a band with his brothers with vibes/piano, bass and drums - what more can you ask for. Check his great album with Milt Jackson on Riverside/OJC or any with his brothers for what it would have sounded like. His unabilty to read could have caused problems, too, considering the delicate balance of arrangement and improvisation in the MJQ's repertoire - his own organ trio with melvin Rhyne featured some clever arrangements, but not as elaborate as John Lewis' pieces.

What is the source for the offer?

[ghost of miles]

Ironic if true, since his brother's band (the Mastersounds, with whom he recorded once or twice) was sometimes labeled "MJQ-Lite."

[.:.impossible]

"MJQ-Lite"

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?

I've never been grabbed by the MJQ, although I have new interest in Jackson's playing outside of this group, so maybe its time to check out more MJQ?

[wesbed]

I've never been grabbed by the MJQ, although I have new interest in Jackson's playing outside of this group, so maybe its time to check out more MJQ?

I was never grabbed by the Modern Jazz Quartet either. Their music has always seemed, to me, like 'stiff' jazz. Kind of a mixture of jazz improvisation combined with the contraints of a classical music style.

Earlier this year, around February, I purchased the MJQ's 'Django' CD. I was on a K2 hunt and the 'Django' title was the only K2 my local Border's store had in stock that day. I played 'Django' and decided it seemed really good. I purchased Sonny Rolins with the MJQ and the other MJQ K2 remaster 'Concorde.' I believe I've found a new appreciaton for the Modern Jazz Quartet.

[Jim R]

...his brother's band (the Mastersounds, with whom he recorded once or twice) was sometimes labeled "MJQ-Lite."

I've never seen or heard that before. Any idea where/when that came from?

[ghost of miles]

Jim,

Actually, it's probably a more recent reference that I've seen--should've said "is" (Something-Lite is a contemporary kind of phrase; I doubt such a saying would have been around in the late 1950s). However, I do believe the concept holds, that the Mastersounds were criticized for being derivative of the MJQ.

[Jim R]

Jim,

Actually, it's probably a more recent reference that I've seen--should've said "is" (Something-Lite is a contemporary kind of phrase; I doubt such a saying would have been around in the late 1950s).

That's exactly what I was thinking. I figured I'd let you explain.

However, I do believe the concept holds, that the Mastersounds were criticized for being derivative of the MJQ.

This might make for an interesting and enlightening topic. I don't pretend to be an expert on either group. In fact, like many jazz fans, it took me awhile to warm to the MJQ (and I still prefer Milt in other settings, myself). However, I've voiced my opinion before about the Mastersounds. I think their Pac Jazz recordings ought to be packaged and released. I like their sound, and think the musicianship in that group was quite high. For those who may not know, they won a DB critics poll as the best new small group of 1959. (I'm not big on polls, but FWIW I'm just mentioning it). I see that they were derivative of the MJQ in terms of instrumentation (don't know how much direct influence there was), but I wouldn't think it fair to say that in terms of their concept and style. That's an element of this that might be interesting to analyze.

I like Ralph J. Gleason's comment in the liner notes for one of their LP's:

Groups like the Mastersounds, the MJQ, Miles Davis, Ahmad Jamal, and Cal Tjader have done a great deal in recent years to dispel the myth that many peripheral jazz fans- and most people completely outside the music- have perpetuated: that jazz has to be loud, discordant, or even harsh.

[JSngry]

From what I've heard of The Mastersounds, they're were closer to Shearing than MJQ, all things considered.

[ghost of miles]

Jim R,

I'm beginning to listen to and research the Mastersounds as part of my Indiana jazz series and the anthology that I'm doing for the Indiana Historical Society, and I agree--in fact, if my IHS anthology comes off, I'm actually thinking of proposing a Mastersounds set to Mosaic with me doing the booklet. My jazz writing needs to take a leap before I sound them out on that one, though.

Edited November 20, 2004 by ghost of miles

[Jim R]

Maybe "George Shearing & The Montgomery Brothers"! I don't know, though- I think I'd have to disagree. The M's swung harder than Shearing's groups, and had more blues influence. They remind me of the MJQ at times, but without as much of the "chamber jazz" approach. Like I said, I don't consider myself highly knowledgeable here. The one thing I am pretty certain about is that the Mastersounds are too widely overlooked/dismissed. Check them OUT!

I've never contacted Cuscuna about doing a set, but I have mentioned it numerous times on the ol' boards. How many of us own the 2002 CD release from Fantasy (combining "Swinging With" and "A Date With")? I'm spinning it right now, and I still say these guys are worthy.

[Jim R]

From what I've heard of The Mastersounds, they're were closer to Shearing than MJQ, all things considered.

Maybe it's the "all things considered" that is key to my disagreement (or to the possibility that I'm overlooking some factors)...

[Christiern]

As far as I know, Wes was never offered a job with the MJQ--nor would that make any sense.

Where did you read this?

[Chuck Nessa]

Wes, Mastersounds, MJQ.

Boy, there is a musical powerhouse. I can't stand the implications.

[Bright Moments]

try pyramid & fontessa. 2 of my favorite MJQ albums!

B-)

[Christiern]

Throw in Creed Taylor and you've got it!

[garthsj]

I have been an enthusiastic fan of the MJQ since their very first albums on Prestige (The Milt Jackson Quartet on a London Records 10" was one of the first LP albums I ever purchased)... and I must own just about everything they have available on CD. I have never understood why they elicit such mixed feelings and snide comments, although I have long appreciated that it is all a matter of different tastes. Let me just say that when they wanted to they could swing harder than just about any other group around (listen to the Last Concert as an example), and the sheer beauty of their voicings on ballads can bring a lump to the throat. For me the greatest thrill is that almost everytime I put on an MJQ album, no matter how many times I have listened to it before, I discover some new gem of improvisation, or interplay between the musicians .. just listening to the inventiveness of John Lewis's "comping" (brilliant improvisations in their own right) behind Milt Jackson's driving solos is, for me, one of the greatest pleasures in modern jazz.

Anyway .. far be it for me to try and bring beauty and understanding where it is not welcomed ...

Garth,

Houston.

[couw]

I have never understood why they elicit such mixed feelings and snide comments, although I have long appreciated that it is all a matter of different tastes.

I took a leap from some of the Prestige stuff to some Atlantic compilation LP and that did leave me thinking "ouch!"

It's a big leap and I didn't quite like the opposite shore. Too artificial somehow.

It's been a while, I should dig it out.

[Jim R]

Anyway .. far be it for me to try and bring beauty and understanding where it is not welcomed ...

Hey, a snide comment here and there I suppose (not from me), but don't assume that your enthusiasm would not be welcomed. Bring it!

BTW, what do you think of the Mastersounds?

[mikeweil]

However, I do believe the concept holds, that the Mastersounds were criticized for being derivative of the MJQ.

Let's be honest: Whenever we hear a quartet with vibes, piano, bass, and drums, we first think of the MJQ, and then listen harder to find out if it's not.

I would say that every quartet with that instrumentation after their first records showed at least some small influence, especially when they focussed on arrangements - derivative is too hard an expression, pretty narrow minded IMHO.

[mikeweil]

From what I've heard of The Mastersounds, they're were closer to Shearing than MJQ, all things considered.

Valid opinion, as they did record an album with Shearing for Jazzland (available on OJC CD).

[JSngry]

Reason i say that is because the Mastersounds never, to my knowledge, went in for the overt "classical" tinges that the MJQ did, instead going for a more "block" type group sound, ala Shearing (whose sound, it must be noted, was not originally the hackneyed lounge fodder it became).

[Larry Kart]

BTW, in case anyone else has ever wondered-- I once asked talented pianist Bruce Barth (now in his early 40s) if he were related to Mastersounds drummer Benny Barth. He said no.

[Chuck Nessa]

BTW, in case anyone else has ever wondered-- I once asked talented pianist Bruce Barth (now in his early 40s) if he were related to Mastersounds drummer Benny Barth. He said no.

Boy am I happy to have that jazz mystery cleared up!