Talk about being narrowminded!

[couw]

statistician?

cool word, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

why did you change Kevin's smiley from a to a ?

[rockefeller center]

why did you change Kevin's smiley from a to a ?

I didn't (I quoted the post from Oct 18 2004, 07:53 PM).

Edit: disabled emoticons.

Edited October 18, 2004 by rockefeller center

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Sorry, but I don't live my life thinking "oh, that's what a WHITE man said" - I look at the stature and accomplishments of *Gunther Schuller*. Isn't that more appropriate?

Perhaps I should have included the preamble to that quote:

"Though plenty of people in jazz begrudge Mr. Marsalis his success, a few feel that he has not played to his own strengths as a musician. In 1979, when Mr. Marsalis was 17, Gunther Schuller, the composer and historian of classical music and jazz, accepted Mr. Marsalis for the summer program at Tanglewood and remained a friend and mentor for years after."

I gave up on Wynton back when he made the record with the sermon. He had been slipping since Kirkland and Branford left the band and that album was just the proof of the decline. Of course, some people would say that was the birth of the "real" Wynton. Well, I'd much rather have the guy from Black Codes back. He was never any kind of real innovator, but at least the music was more interesting to me.

Mike

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Are you an unemployed sociologist or statistician?

I assume you have a reason for this question? Are you implying that someone would have to be a sociologist or statistician to make an observation about the race of people who post on Jazz discussion boards?

Later,

Kevin

[Michael Fitzgerald]

BTW, interesting how Toshiko Akiyoshi ended up being in the "white" classification.

I think bringing the "race card" into this is just absolutely ridiculous. I don't like what Marsalis has to say. It's not the color of his skin. I don't like the music he makes. It's not about his ancestry. I don't like his treatment of the music. It's not about anything other than that.

For heaven's sake, I spend my life documenting the lives and careers of musicians - *jazz* musicians - many of them *black* jazz musicians. So when I find a black jazz musician that I don't agree with, now it's somehow related to the color of their skin? That's just absurd.

Mike

Edited October 18, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Sorry, but I don't live my life thinking "oh, that's what a WHITE man said" - I look at the stature and accomplishments of *Gunther Schuller*. Isn't that more appropriate?

Mike, I just thought it was funny was that most of the previous posts leading up to your post were about Wynton and white critics. You following these posts with a critique by a white musician just seemed rather ironic. That's all. I followed that with an observation, one that I hadn't really thought about before, that many of us debating this on-line are also white. It is odd, don't you think?

Later,

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

BTW, interesting how Toshiko Akiyoshi ended up being in the "white" classification.

Mike

Well jeez, she's not black. You'll have to admit that at least.

Later,

Kevin

[rockefeller center]

Are you implying that someone would have to be a sociologist or statistician to make an observation about the race of people who post on Jazz discussion boards?

No, I'm not.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No, Toshiko Akiyoshi is not black. I will grant you that.

But soooooooooo what?

Looks like the world *isn't* just black and white, is it?

Shouldn't we be valuing the individual and his or her contributions rather than figuring out which category we can shove him or her into so we can make blanket statements like "all blacks...." or "all non-blacks...." - guess what? I don't lump people together and judge things that way and I believe that a LOT of people don't. I know there are plenty of idiots out there, but I do have SOME faith in humanity.

Mike

[Dr. Rat]

Hey, I'm white! What am I supposed to think?

--eric

[catesta]

Kevin,

I seem to remember that Lester Bowie, clearly black, was a rather severe critic of Wynton Marsalis.

Too bad he's not still around, so we could ask him.

Some interesting comments I came across....

Lester Bowie interviewed in The Wire, July 1993

'After that last interview I've started to seriously question just what (Marsalis's) involvement with the music is. I think it's detrimental. I think there's something evil somewhere. Because it's getting out of the realm of just not knowing or of being young. This is like a deliberate effort to sabotage the development of the music. I mean, if that's the way he's talking about Miles, he must think I'm a piece of shit...'

Q: You said once that you think Wynton is using the concept of the tradition to destroy the tradition

'Yeah, to destroy it. He's using a partial concept of the tradition. If you're talking about the tradition in jazz, what about the tradition of innovation, creativity, moving forward, being contemporary. Is that not part of the tradition of jazz? What about the tradition of having and maintaining an individual voice. Tradition has to be taking the music as a whole... What we were doing in the 60s was trying to be different - that's the whole idea. All the guys that taught us to be creative, so what were we going to do - come up with an imitation of them?'

'Back in the 70s (Wynton) showed up at my house by surprise... he wanted to watch me while I listened to the Plugged Nickel album. That means, to me, that at that time he was in a position to grasp the profundity of what was going on then at those Plugged Nickel dates. Somewhere after that, between when he left my house and now, that grasping process is on vacation - quite a long vacation.

-- Wayne Shorter

'I haven't heard him (Marsalis) swing. Or play the blues. Or play music really. There's a point where it's up to history, but if the jazz world is saying this is good, accepting this, we're creating a new generation of people who are not really listening ... I don't feel envious of Wynton Marsalis, I feel sorry for him. He was too young to know how to handle what happened.'

--Keith Jarrett

'According to Marsalis jazz went crazy in the 1960s for the same reason the rest of the world did: no one was tough enough, dedicated enough, man enough, to live up to its responsibilities. Although its difficult to fault Marsalis as a trumpeter or bandleader, I sometimes wonder what it says about this era of jazz that so resolutely conservative a young musician has become its cynosure.'

--Francis Davis

[catesta]

'The music was always based around melody. Solos didn't come into fashion until Louis Armstrong and didn't become ingrained into jazz until the bebop thing came along. So I think that there will be more emphasis put on presentation and composition as opposed to just soloing, which is really a boring and predictable way of presenting music...The initial impetus of music wasn't even to solo. Soloing was a special thing. The solo always lifted the tune up. As time passed you had a good 40 years in jazz before they started doing that. I mean they'd do it at a jam session. It's a ritual in a jam session but not at a concert... That came in during the forties with Charlie Parker and everybody. Before that it was always the arrangements and a little bit of solo ... But that kind of situation, where you have soloists that are just OK that solo for a real long time, I don't think that was part of the plan'.

-- Wynton Marsalis

'the established cats who should have been setting an example were bullshitting and wearing dresses and trying to act like rock stars. So when people heard me they knew it was time to start taking care of business again.'

--Wynton Marsalis

[Larry Kart]

Mike Fitzgerald wrote:

I think bringing the "race card" into this is just absolutely ridiculous. I don't like what Marsalis has to say. It's not the color of his skin. I don't like the music he makes. It's not about his ancestry. I don't like his treatment of the music. It's not about anything other than that.

For heaven's sake, I spend my life documenting the lives and careers of musicians - *jazz* musicians - many of them *black* jazz musicians. So when I find a black jazz musician that I don't agree with, now it's somehow related to the color of their skin? That's just absurd.

Exactly. Also, isn't it clear that it's Wynton who keeps playing the race card in an attempt to deflect unfavorable but well-grounded responses (e.g. Schuller's) to his music as music? For some time, IMO, Wynton has basically existed in the realm where politics beds down with publicity.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Shouldn't we be valuing the individual and his or her contributions rather than figuring out which category we can shove him or her into so we can make blanket statements like "all blacks...." or "all non-blacks...." - guess what? I don't lump people together and judge things that way and I believe that a LOT of people don't. I know there are plenty of idiots out there, but I do have SOME faith in humanity.

Mike, we can do whatever we want but the simple fact is we are white, not black and certainly not capable living the life of a black man in our society. This thread took a turn on Wynton's comments about racism in the Jazz community. We can sit here and say he's full of it but we cannot put ourselves in his shoes. Impossible to do.

I have a very good friend who is black and I've tried for years to understand his world. I've come to the conclusion that I just can't. He faces things in his daily life that I never will. Add to that the fact that he is married to a white woman and you can just imagine how little I know of the stuff he puts up with. You know, there are certain restaurants that he can't go to without getting nasty stuff dumped into his food? There are a lot of people in our world who have issues with race. We can ignore this fact or recognize it. Don't bury your head in that sand and ignore it just because the person speaking is Wynton Marsalis. He may have a very good beef with some white critics and they very well could be racially motivated.

FWIW, a former poster to this board, who happens to be a white drummer, told me in no uncertain terms that there is racial discrimination in the Jazz world. In his case, it's reversed. Please don't act like it's not there.

Later,

kevin

[Dr. Rat]

I don't think anyone can say that the jazz scene is free of racism, but it's another thing to say that people's criticisms of your work are largely racially motivated.

One's a general statement, the other is highly self-interetsed.

And I'd say that Wynton's point would be very hard for him to support.

But, again, this "in-depth interview" is hardly worth thinking about.

--eric

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No one needs to live the life of anyone else. If you really think that this is necessary to do anything, I can't help you. It's absurd to think that ONLY black people can understand such and such and ONLY white people can understand the other thing and ONLY.... etc.

I've heard it put forth that ONLY people of the same race should write biographies of their particular subject. That's a crock.

To TRULY understand anyone, you'd need to be the same race, same sex, same age, same background, same.....well, you'd need to be THAT person, now wouldn't you? And Miles Davis voiced that sentiment pretty well: "If you understood why I did everything that I did, you'd be me." Or words to that effect.

Humanity. Art is part of what defines us as being humans (not whites, not blacks, not men, not women, not rich, not poor, etc.). I get something from listening to the music of people who are VASTLY different from me. But - how on earth can I understand what they're saying? I'm not the same! Because it's about humanity. Shakespeare is great because he is dealing with universal truths, things that apply whether he's talking about ancient Romans; writing in England; read in the present - wherever! You don't need to BE an ancient Roman or an English playwright.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for others, I'll speak for myself. I can point out *musically* what doesn't appeal to me in Wynton's music. I can point out *educationally* what is flawed in his approach to teaching. Race ain't got nothing to do with that.

I don't think anyone has denied that prejudice and racism exist. The point is that race is NOT the fundamental argument against what Wynton Marsalis is doing.

Mike

[Larry Kart]

Kevin: No one is saying that racial discrimination doesn't exist -- in the jazz world [in various directions, as you say] and in the world at large. What I'm saying is that Wynton is more or less taking a "racial prejudice is the only reason someone wouldn't celebrate my music" tack, which is a neat but ugly little maneuver.

Also, show me one of those white critics who can't stand Wynton's music after a certain point in his career (I'm certainly one of them) who consistently praises white musicians and consistently decries the work of other black musicians. Bet you can't find a single one. Wynton's problem with folks like me is twofold 1) Musically there hasn't been much happening with him in a very long time 2) He's tried to -- as Lester Bowie eloquently expanded upon in the interview quoted below -- use the concept of tradition to destroy the tradition. Wynton's music will blow away from the scene, if it hasn't done so already -- there's just not that much there; can you think of one really memorable young player who's Wynton-inspired (i.e. in musical terms)? -- but what I think of as Wynton's "Neo-Con Game" seems to me to have done some real and perhaps lasting damage to jazz.

[Larry Kart]

Sorry. I meant "as Lester Bowie eloquently expanded upon in the interview quoted ABOVE."

[Chuck Nessa]

There is a fair amount of racism in the jazz world, though not as much as the US in general. I was sharply criticized by a couple of white musician (in the ‘80s) for paying attention to the AACM guys in the ‘60s while they and their friends went unrecorded. I got a real earfull that day. I also received “hate mail” for letting a white writer (John Litweiler) write the liner notes for the Air record – no matter the band asked for him.

Before I read ANY criticism of Wynton from the “white press” I heard a shitload of complaints and musical criticism from black musicians. I will not say who/what, but this was from both working stiffs and giants.

This reminded me of a story, not directly race related but interesting (I hope). In 1981 while helping produce the Chicago Jazz Festival I convinced the local PBS station a live, nationwide broadcast would be a good idea. Their request was for a female singer, something “really visual” and someone “popular”. We sold them a package of Carmen McRae, Sun Ra and Herbie Hancock. They could get network time on Wednesday, so that’s what we did and the show went well (but that is another really long story). The show went out “live” and was shortened for a couple of repeats.

The following Saturday I had set up a Jimmy Smith Jam Session (another story too) for the evening finale and in the morning went to the airport to pick up Bill Hardman, Junior Cook and Lou Donaldson. In the limo on the way to the hotel the guys all were talking about watching the broadcast. Finally, Sweet Pappa Lou said “Yeah, that Marsalis kid, they gonna fuck him up fast”. Everyone else laughed and nodded. I will never forget the sound of Lou’s voice as he chuckled at his statement.

Edited October 18, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[Larry Kart]

Sorry again. I meant to say "Wynton's problem FOR folks like me..." -- not "with folks like me." Make of that what you will, Dr. Freud.

P.S. I remember that Jimmy Smith jam session set. It was something else. The drummer was Mickey Roker? I vaguely recall that whoever it was, getting that person in the drum chair was part of the "story."

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry to disappoint you Larry. I tried for Blakey (on tour in Japan) and Jimmy wanted Grady Tate - I said no. We compromised with JS's working drummer Kenny Dixon. For me the real star was Ray Crawford, after JS insisted on Burrell.

[Larry Kart]

No problem -- I've been disappointed before.

[connoisseur series500]

Sorry to disappoint you Larry. I tried for Blakey (on tour in Japan) and Jimmy wanted Grady Tate - I said no. We compromised with JS's working drummer Kenny Dixon.

What was wrong with Grady Tate?

Too much money?

[Chuck Nessa]

What was wrong with Grady Tate?

Too much money?

Too "wimpy" for the format. Money was never a problem. Do you really think he'd cost more than Blakey?

[Christiern]

Kevin, if you spent more time around black musicians, I don't think you would have made the ludicrous statement that detoured this thread onto a race track, as it were.

Basically, what you are implying is that critique of Wynton is based on his race rather than his music--that is just plain ridiculous, not to mention, insulting. Now, let's hear you explain why so many white people praise(d) Sonny Rollins or Miles or Monk or Randy Weston or ...

...and are black critics of Kenny G motivated by some kind of racism or anti-Semitism?