Your favorite TENOR player on the scene today

[Joe G]

*Thread hijack warning*

I'm just not clear on what an equivalent album to Saxophone Colossus would be, exactly. Would we recognize it as such?

I was around when 'Saxophone Colossus' was released and - along with a lot of people - was taken over by the sheer brillance. Same thing with John Coltrane's first albums. And then when Albert Ayler's 'Spiritual Unity' exploded.

Is there any album by one of the current saxophonists that hit you in the face the same way those did in their time? I have not but would love to hear one.

Not for tenor players. I've heard some other stuff that hit me that way.

[dsgtrane]

James Carter

Also a big Seamus Blake fan.

[cannonball-addict]

Tim Armacost -- big-toned, out of Rollins and Trane (you probably can't go both those ways at once, but he kind of does). "Live at Smalls" and "The Wishing Well," both on Double Time, are the places to go, esp. the latter. I think there may be a new one too. As with Weiskopf, there's a sense of an underlying system at work (perhaps more akin, though, to the way Hawkins and Byas went about things -- extensions upon extensions, which then have melodic and rhythmic offshoots/consequences), but all this, again, is inspiring to the player himself. Weiskopf and Armacost's solos usually sound to me like much-is-at-risk adventures. If I don't get that feeling from a player, I'm usually gone.

Tim can play!!!

[cannonball-addict]

I followed up Larry Kart's recommendation for Walt Weiskopf a while back and I've become a big fan of Weiskopf. In fact, I just picked up one of his Criss Cross CDs (Sleepless Nights) earlier this week. Michael Blake, Don Braden, and Eric Alexander all have CDs that I enjoy. I like Jimmy Greene too on the recent Jeremy Pelt and Ralph Peterson CDs.

Count me out of the James Carter camp (at least so far). I find his playing to be overheated, zig-zagging all over the place, without really going anywhere.

Jimmy Greene!!!! - 2nd place finisher at the 1996 Thelonious Monk competition. Second place went to Jon Gordon, whom we heard a lot from in the 80s and early 90s but not much since.

Greene.... is also incredible on Tom Harrell's Live at the Village Vanguard album and the new one "Wise Children." I have recommended the latter in other threads but you all absolutely HAVE to check this out if only for Greene's tenor, Myron Walden's alto and Xavier Davis on piano and keyboards (clavinet too). Also Ugonna Okegwo is a bad boy. Gil Goldstein's arrangements are nice too.

I Greene's latest release on Criss Cross. It features Jeff Tain Watts, Xavier Davis, and John Benitez. Hardcore blowing date - some ballads too.

[cannonball-addict]

Guess I'll go on "vacation" for a generation if these recommendations are "the best".

You don't think anyone mentioned here has serious soul - whose compositions and improvisations don't move people? All due respect Mr. Jazz Producer but you must not be listening.

[cannonball-addict]

Speaking of which... how the hell could we have missed Ravi Coltrane up until this point in this thread????

Cuz he can't play tenor worth sh*t, IMHO.

To back my opinion up, I heard from another musician AND a fan (both friends of mine) who were not together at the time, that at Newport, Ravi was playing tenor and then Brecker got up to play next to him and absolutely put him to shame. Now that's not to say that Brecker wouldn't school a lot of the the guys listed here, but suffice to say that for the rest of the set, Coltrane (we're talkin Ravi here), did not pick up the tenor opting only for soprano (which he proceeded to play the SH*T out of I am told) - they are two entirely different instruments. The only guys who can play tenor and soprano comparably well are Trane, Billy Pierce, Wayne Shorter, and maybe Tim Armacost (but I haven't heard enough).

[cannonball-addict]

Where's a good place to start with Mark Turner?

Check out the Kurt Rosenwinkel album called The Next Step. Great compositions; excellent working group.

Another conspicous absence in this thread (and a favorite of mine): Ron Blake.

Also check out his own release Dharma Days - also with Rosenwinkel. The two seem to be joined at the hip.

And don't forget FLY - the supposedly Turner-led trio with Jeff Ballard and Larry Grenadier on the new and "improved" Savoy Jazz.

[cannonball-addict]

I like a number of the new ones. They just ain't in a Prez/Hawk/Coltrane/Rollins/Ayler frame.

Rollins was 26 when he put out 'Saxophone Colossus'. Any of the current ones recorded an equivalent album yet?

The day Saxophone Colossus came out, it wasn't what it is today. You need to give these things temporal distance (time to settle in to our collective consiousness).

Also to make things fair - people under age 50 are not the same generation. You can't say that Mark Turner and David Murray are the same generation of players. So I would rather say under 40 for most of these guys we've mentioned. It takes time to establish yourself. Chris Potter has been making jazz albums with true professionals since 1991 (w/ Red Rodney) and he is still in the Rising Star category in Downbeat - gimme a break. That's the kind of time people need to make it "bigtime" in this business. In ten years everyone who thought David Murray is the best today will think a lot higher of guys like Chris Potter Mark Turner David Sanchez and Seamus Blake.

[brownie]

The day Saxophone Colossus came out, it wasn't what it is today. You need to give these things temporal distance (time to settle in to our collective consiousness).

Beg to differ. There was nothing temporal about the recognition. It was quite instantaneous. Nearly every jazz fans who heard the LP raved about it. That one plus the BN Village Vanguard LP. I'm speaking from the European perspective.

When Rollins brought a trio at the Club Saint-Germain in Paris in 1959, everybody in the audience was waiting for the tunes from those albums.

[king ubu]

Can't take part in this discussion, really, but there's one disc that indeed hit me in the face like nothing else before AND it was pretty recent when I heard it: Gianni Gebbia - Arcana Major (not for the weak ones!)

[JSngry]

The day Saxophone Colossus came out, it wasn't what it is today. You need to give these things temporal distance (time to settle in to our collective consiousness).

Beg to differ. There was nothing temporal about the recognition. It was quite instantaneous. Nearly every jazz fans who heard the LP raved about it. That one plus the BN Village Vanguard LP. I'm speaking from the European perspective.

From everything I've read/heard, that was the American perspective as well.

[JSngry]

When I'm moved by Chris Potter, it's to put something else on.

[ADR]

Chris Potter - for his monumental chops and incredible expressiveness on the tenor.

Ellery Eskelin - for leading one of the most interesting and groundbreaking working bands of the past 15 years (IMO) in his trio with Parkins and Black.

[cannonball-addict]

The day Saxophone Colossus came out, it wasn't what it is today. You need to give these things temporal distance (time to settle in to our collective consiousness).

Beg to differ. There was nothing temporal about the recognition. It was quite instantaneous. Nearly every jazz fans who heard the LP raved about it. That one plus the BN Village Vanguard LP. I'm speaking from the European perspective.

From everything I've read/heard, that was the American perspective as well.

There's no way to win in this situation though I know I'm right. Here's why:

1. Who the hell is gonna say they didn't dig it when it first came out.

2. There were surely people who didn't immidiately buy it for one, and didn't dig it for two but stayed in the closet about it.

A lot of guys today will please their chums who dig one album by saying oh yeah I dug that album even if they didn't dig it cuz they fear being rejected or ridiculed.

I personally love Saxophone Colossus but I gave it to my bass player friend who is about a 5 on the jazz knowledgeability and ability to hear good music scale and he said it was nothing special. Most people can't appreciate the subtleties of Sonny's rhythms or his ingenious style and inflections same way people can't hear Coltrane's supremely superior superimposed changes to any tune he plays on).

Edited October 11, 2004 by cannonball-addict

[JSngry]

Read the contemporaneous press, and talk to some guys who were around then. You're not as right as you think you are!

[cannonball-addict]

Damn JSngry you changed you avatar....I didn't realize I was dealing with you here. My bad. I don't want to sound sophomoric or pretentious but if I accept what you're saying then the only possible explanation is because of the status that he was already generating with his other albums prior to that and his work with Miles and others.

I can only understand the type of wide acclaim for a record if a substantial amount of publicity was going on to boost the album's sales. Then and today, a record was and is not bound to do well unless you've got good visible publicity. I am almost certain that this record had that behind it (it was on Prestige of course) - kinda the way they boost the recent Osby and Lovano albums on BN but they're not necessarily good (a lot of the time they're not as good as people are saying they are).

Unfortunately, the way magazines that spread the word over long distances and to many of the same readers (DB, JT, and Jazziz in the US) - the fact that reviews appear are based almost entirely on whether the record companies who the major artists are recording for, are contributing significantly to advertising revenue for the magazine taking on the task of assigning a writer to a certain review.

Furthermore, regardless of whether or not the review is favorable, the fact that it got featured in the first few "feature reviews" or "spotlights," is the major motivating factor that leads to a purchase and the record companies/ad agencies know this. I've studied this in journalism classes - even if the story's content rips something or someone, often times the person on the receiving end is so happy to have their person or their product displayed prominently that warrants readers' attention.

We all know that we rarely read ALL the CD reviews in JT and DB beyond the main feature ones. I'd be willing to bet that this was the case for Saxophone Colossus - maybe not with today's degree of sophistication in publicity and such but something like it probably happened.

Let's not forget that back then the producers were often also the guys writing the stories up in the magazines and newspapers.

[JSngry]

...the only possible explanation is because of the status that he was already generating with his other albums prior to that and his work with Miles and others.

Well, there you have it.

As I read it, the buzz began w/WORKTIME, and continued throughout the 50s. Sonny had become a "major jazz voice", and all his records were anticipated by those "in the know", which meant, of course, musicians, the hipper critics, and the hippest fans. When you get a buzz like that, and enough quality records to back it up, the "general" fan base is quick to catch on, or at least it was back then. Mind you, I'm not talking about the casual fan or those who were totally into another bag, just the type of fan who kept up w/what was going on w/the general "hard bop" scene of the time.

Dig - COLLOSSUS was released in mid-1956, right? It was part of a lightening-fast run that included WAY OUT WEST, the VV date, NEWK'S TIME, VOLUME 2, +4, and the Brown/Roach BASIN STREET album. People WERE paying attention. Gunther Schuller's famous essay about "Blue 7" was published in November of 1958 (who knows when it was actually written? No matter, you're talking less than 2 years after the fact, max), and the fuss IT created messed Rollins up so bad that he swore off reading his press, period. Good or bad.

It's easy to lose sight of just how significant, not just "important" or "inflential", but truly significant, a figure Sonny Rollins was in the 1950s. I think a lot of people today view him as "just" the ultimate hard bop tenor of the 1950s, or something like that. But like I said - talk to players who were coming up then, and read the contemporaneous press (for that matter, get Larry Kart to talk about it). Whitney Balliet, who was never big on the whole hard bop thing in the first place (read his liner notes to TWO DEGREES EAST, THREE DEGREES WEST) wrote that WAY OUT WEST was "...a clear indication of a striving toward an improvisational approach that is revolutionary..." It becomes obvious that Sonny Rollins was quite the focal point in those days (in fact, the rumors still persist amongst the "old timers" that the reason for the "sabbatical" that began in 1959 was caused by jealousy/fear/whatever by Newk that Trane was stealing his thunder, both musically and publicity-wise. Only he knows for sure).

You can believe it that when an artist that people are paying that kind of attention to puts out that kind of a record that it's going to be noticed. The buzz didn't need to be "created" - it was already there. You can argue that not everybody immediately got just how heavy it was (but that's usually the case outside of musicians and the more musically astute fans/critics), but hey - people noticed.

[Larry Kart]

Cannonball-Addict writes: "I can only understand the type of wide acclaim for a record if a substantial amount of publicity was going on to boost the album's sales. Then and today, a record was and is not bound to do well unless you've got good visible publicity. I am almost certain that this record had that behind it..."

No disrespect C-A, but I was around then, and that's not the way it was, for several reasons. First, the jazz community in most places (certainly in the high school where I was at the time) was fairly tight-knit; if you loved the music, you knew other people who were on the same wavelength, and the sharing of enthusiams was a big part of the game. Second, in lots of urban areas there were goodish jazz radio shows to spread the word -- not through advertising but just by playing the records that the host probably liked just as much as, and for the same reasons, you did. Third, in the typical record store of the time, you could go into listening booths and play the new sides yourself -- a great way to pick up on things. I remember in particular buying Clifford Jordan's just released "Cliff Craft" that way, knocked out by a player I don't think I'd even heard of before. Finally, the impact of "Saxophone Colossus," and just before it "Worktime," was not only a more or less spontaneous word-of-mouth thing with a few modest trimmings (as outlined above), it was HUGE primarily because just about everyone who heard the album and was open to it (musicians and fans) knew right away that this was a really huge MUSICAL/CULTURAL EVENT -- what Sonny played just grabbed you by the throat and shook you like a rag doll. The impact of "Blue Train" a bit later on was comparable; you had to be half-dead not to get it. This was change-your-life music, and I guess either we were looking to change our lives and/or we recognized that in the light of what "Saxophone Colossus" and "Blue Train" were saying we were somewhat different people in a different place already.

[Peter F]

I am a year or two older than Larry Kart, based upon when he said he was still in high school.

i was only recently out of high school when all these great Rollins records were released and agree 100% with Larry kart's comments. i lived through that period just as he described it.

Peter F

[cannonball-addict]

Cannonball-Addict writes: "I can only understand the type of wide acclaim for a record if a substantial amount of publicity was going on to boost the album's sales. Then and today, a record was and is not bound to do well unless you've got good visible publicity. I am almost certain that this record had that behind it..."

No disrespect C-A, but I was around then, and that's not the way it was, for several reasons. First, the jazz community in most places (certainly in the high school where I was at the time) was fairly tight-knit; if you loved the music, you knew other people who were on the same wavelength, and the sharing of enthusiams was a big part of the game. Second, in lots of urban areas there were goodish jazz radio shows to spread the word -- not through advertising but just by playing the records that the host probably liked just as much as, and for the same reasons, you did. Third, in the typical record store of the time, you could go into listening booths and play the new sides yourself -- a great way to pick up on things. I remember in particular buying Clifford Jordan's just released "Cliff Craft" that way, knocked out by a player I don't think I'd even heard of before. Finally, the impact of "Saxophone Colossus," and just before it "Worktime," was not only a more or less spontaneous word-of-mouth thing with a few modest trimmings (as outlined above), it was HUGE primarily because just about everyone who heard the album and was open to it (musicians and fans) knew right away that this was a really huge MUSICAL/CULTURAL EVENT -- what Sonny played just grabbed you by the throat and shook you like a rag doll. The impact of "Blue Train" a bit later on was comparable; you had to be half-dead not to get it. This was change-your-life music, and I guess either we were looking to change our lives and/or we recognized that in the light of what "Saxophone Colossus" and "Blue Train" were saying we were somewhat different people in a different place already.

I dig. Respek to d'elders.

[Chuck Nessa]

I dig. Respek to d'elders.

Good move. I was about to go ballistic!

edit to add the second "l".

Edited October 12, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[ADR]

When I'm moved by Chris Potter, it's to put something else on.

Ouch......

Do you really dislike Potter that much JSngry? If so, why?.....if you don't mind my asking (I respect your opinion).

[JSngry]

No, I don't really dislike him. I just don't get anything out of him other than a tremendous respect for the work that he's put in. But the results of that work don't reach me at all. I hear all this talk of him as a "leading voice", and I can only conclude that where he's leading is someplace that I'm just not interested in going.

Like Eric Alexander and others, I have the highest respect for Potter's talents; he just doesn't connect with me emotionally. I know there are many for whom he does, and that's cool. Different strokes and all that. I do think that the promoting of him as the aforementioned "leading voice" is a bit much, but whatcha' gonna do 'bout that?

Loads of respect, little or no real affection. I guess that sums it up for me.

Edited October 12, 2004 by JSngry

[cannonball-addict]

I bet these "top" current cats would think we're crazy to bicker over them. The only seriously hip musician whom I know of (with national name recognition in this small jazz world of ours) who is a member of this bboard is Frank Kimbrough (fkimbrough).

If there are others please let me know. I know JSngry is pretty well-reputed in Texas. Who else?

[JSngry]

We got a couple of pretty damn good trombonists here - Free For All (who's a regular) and slide advantage redux (who's an occasional visitor). That would be Paul McKee and Greg Waits, respectively.