Quotes while soloing

[PHILLYQ]

I'm all for musical puns like that. But it has to happen in a spontaneous manner, so it's not like the soloist does it every time, the same quote. It's like when someone says "tell that funny joke" it almost always bombs because it's not spontaneous. Once it's been done to death it's just not clever anymore.

For example, if I hear another Flintstones quote on rhythm changes I think I'm gonna yak.

Some quotes are so easy to interject that there's nothing particularly clever about them. I think quotes that reflect on the moment and aren't planned tend to work better. If you approach it like "I'm gonna be clever and quote a bunch of tunes" it seldom will come off.

Sonny Rollins said when he was soloing he would play a couple notes that would remind him of another tune and then feel obliged to finish it out. That seems more spontaneous to me.

Whenever I've heard Sonny Rollins do it, it never seemed forced, but rather a part of the solo that fit exactly right to where he was within the solo.

[EKE BBB]

A bit off-topic (not on quoting while soloing but on recognizing tunes, and playing them in a different way, as has been mentioned above)

On Dan Morgenstern´s liner notes to "Live at Hanratty´s", a solo date by Dick Wellstood on Chiaroscuro, he writes (and quotes Dick) about "name that tune" contests:

...Concerned familiar pieces played in novel ways, he said that "taking traditional stuff and presenting it differently is one way to get around the repertory dilemma. Some pianists do off-the-wall Strayhorn tunes and unpublished Alec Wilder... it´s great, but it put audiences to sleep. I´ve found that if I play Runnin´ wild or Myshining hour in stride, it keeps me and the audience from getting bored."

Wellstood added, however, that you can´t take it for granted that listeners will recognize even well-known tunes when they´re played just a little differently, citting and experience he had abroad with a little "name that tune" contest, instigated by a club manager. "My first three suggestions were turned down as being far too difficult to recognize, and this was for a jazz audience, mind you. But, he was right. We settled on I can´t give you anthing but love, Ain´t misbehavin´, and Honeysuckle Rose, which I thought surely almost all of the 200 or so people present would guess. I played everything pretty straight, except for Honeysuckle Rose, I improvised after stating the melody. Well, even the few who were able to identify all three tunes were sure I´d added a fourth that they didn´t know." So it goes...

[Cornelius]

Dr. Rat,

Would you give some examples that irk you? (Other than "Pop Goes The Weasel", by which you mean Basie?)

[Dr. Rat]

Dr. Rat,

Would you give some examples that irk you? (Other than "Pop Goes The Weasel", by which you mean Basie?)

What I was actually thinking about when I wrote that was an experience when I was at Rutgers and there was a tenor quartet in, I don't directly recall who was playing, I could find out, but as I remember it they were fairly prominent. Not Sonny Rollins, but . . .

Anyhow the audience looked to be heavily populated with older male faculty, a lot of music faculty, I suspect,

But anyhow the saxophonist just went off with the quotes, usually of pretty simplistic stuff--Pop goes the weasel, salt peanuts, caravan, and one or two other things I didn't recognize.

The audience was pleased, I have to admit.

I really felt like it was some kinda nostalgia trip, there was so much effort expended on trying to establish this context of reference points and so little, I felt, to performance in the here and now, I realy felt cheated.

At the time I was just getting into jazz in a big way, so I suppose my expectation were high, and I was disillusioned.

I later saw Benny Carter and the way he related to the audience felt completely different--very open and welcoming, and he explained the context of the works he presented, it didn't come off as this hermetic sort of thing.

Even though I didn't dig some of the music, I was deeply impressed. It got me re-illusioned, I guess you could say.

But, I guess, I don't have many examples to provide for you that you can go and listen to. I'm sorry about that. I'll give it a little thought and see if something springs to mind.

--eric

[Free For All]

but suddenly jumping into "Pop Goes the Weasel" or whatever is what I think of as a stupid musician trick.

Regarding Thad Jones quoting PGTW on April In Paris....

I heard they had done MANY takes of the tune, and I'm sure Thad was trying to do something different each time on his solo. Out of the blue he plays the quote, and wouldn't you know it, that take ended up being the keeper. He was then obliged (I'm sure to his chagrin) to recreate it in subsequent live performances, and most anyone who plays the solo on that arrangement today plays that same quote. And it's no longer fresh or clever. One thing that's interesting is that many trumpet players don't know that it was Thad who originally did it.

I think what makes this particular quote (and most quotes) seem a little tired is not the original effort, but the thousands of times it's been repeated since. As I said before, it's about being spontaneous. The effectiveness (and humor) fades with excessive repetition.

BTW, isn't "stupid musician tricks" a regular segment on Letterman?

Edited October 6, 2004 by Free For All

[Jim R]

Dr. Rat,

Would you give some examples that irk you? (Other than "Pop Goes The Weasel", by which you mean Basie?)

Basie? I don't follow you...

Another real obvious one that's pretty tired is "shave and a haircut".

An obvious "angle" in terms of quote motivation and selection is when a melody is substituted because the chord structure is identical (or very similar). Of course, there are many opportunities for quoting bebop themes that match a particular standard (such as "ornithology" during "how high the moon"), and vice versa. There are also standards that share similar chord structures, an example of which would be Dexter quoting "Nancy" while he's playing "body and soul". These kinds of quotes are generally "easier" to pull off, which is why it's nice when creativity (making alterations harmonically, or whatever) comes into play.

Still waiting for any answers to my trivia question...

[jazzypaul]

Favorite quote: Cannonball plopping Fascinatin' Rhythm right into his solo on Miles from Milestones.

Actually Cannonball, I think, was the great unheralded quoter. Quotes in his solos are all over the place.

I read in liner notes to one of Desmond's albums where the writer was talking about some Desmond show that he was at, and Desmond plays a lick from a Chet Baker album. In between sets, the writer comes up to him, tells him how much he liked that Baker album, and Desmond turns around and plays the entire solo during a tune in the next set, replying only with, "I figured you wanted to hear the rest of it." Classic!!

[jazzbo]

One of my favorite quotes is Milt Jackson on Round Midnight playing "Louise" . . . love it.

[7/4]

not too big on quotes....yek!

[Jim R]

Actually Cannonball, I think, was the great unheralded quoter. Quotes in his solos are all over the place.

Hard to disagree, except I might change that to "a great unheralded quoter". There are so many great players who do it a lot... and well.

I read in liner notes to one of Desmond's albums where the writer was talking about some Desmond show that he was at, and Desmond plays a lick from a Chet Baker album.  In between sets, the writer comes up to him, tells him how much he liked that Baker album, and Desmond turns around and plays the entire solo during a tune in the next set, replying only with, "I figured you wanted to hear the rest of it."  Classic!!

That IS classic. That's the kind of thing that separates the quoting men from the quoting boys, IMO. You've got to have a LOT of music: A) in your head, and B) at your fingertips when the moment strikes.

[JSngry]

"Autumn Nocture". Throw me a fish.

[Jim R]

I used to have a pretty (damned) good arm... but maybe I'll mail it to you... wait- with the postal service being what it is down there, I'll just post a little something...

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go see if I have any recordings of "Louise"... ... argh... there's too many frigging songs to learn...

[P.D.]

but suddenly jumping into "Pop Goes the Weasel" or whatever is what I think of as a stupid musician trick.

Regarding Thad Jones quoting PGTW on April In Paris....

I heard they had done MANY takes of the tune, and I'm sure Thad was trying to do something different each time on his solo. Out of the blue he plays the quote, and wouldn't you know it, that take ended up being the keeper. He was then obliged (I'm sure to his chagrin) to recreate it in subsequent live performances, and most anyone who plays the solo on that arrangement today plays that same quote. And it's no longer fresh or clever. One thing that's interesting is that many trumpet players don't know that it was Thad who originally did it.

I think what makes this particular quote (and most quotes) seem a little tired is not the original effort, but the thousands of times it's been repeated since. As I said before, it's about being spontaneous. The effectiveness (and humor) fades with excessive repetition.

BTW, isn't "stupid musician tricks" a regular segment on Letterman?

You got there before me.. but the problem in this case is that " April" became a hit.. and everyone, except presumably we "knowlegable " Jazz fans wanted to hear Thad pop it in, just as much as the arrangement had to have the 'fake' finishes.. without these two aspects, Basie and April just don't seem quite right.

If you have the Basie " Roulette" Live Mosaic, you can pull up an April track where obviously Thad is trying to dump the Weasel.. he quotes Frankie and Johnny.. it goes over like the proverbial lead balloon.

Quotes can be great, clever and funny, but also dumb, silly and boring. Like most things in jazz.. all possibilities are there.

Edited October 6, 2004 by P.D.

[JSngry]

The whole quoting thing to me comes down to this - music is a language. Proceed accordingly.

[Jim R]

"Autumn Nocture". Throw me a fish.

Holy SHIT! I just realized, you were very (VERY) close, but strictly speaking, I'm afraid you barely missed it. Gimme back the blue whale.

[JSngry]

You talking the quote @ 3:56? That's "Autumn Nocturne". What am I missing?

Or does spelling count?

[BruceH]

I think most quotes just sail on by me.

[Jim R]

You talking the quote @ 3:56? That's "Autumn Nocturne". What am I missing?

Or does spelling count?

Hey, Alex Trebeck (or Art Fleming, for that matter) wouldn't have thrown you a fish if you didn't form your answer as a question; Gary Moore wouldn't have thrown you a fish if you took your blindfold off to look at Betsy Palmer ; Allen Ludden wouldn't have thrown you a fish if... oh, never mind. We're closed for the evening. You'll get your whale back tomorrow.

[JSngry]

I expect io to be fileted.

[Jim R]

I think most quotes just sail on by me.

Seriously, I don't know about "most", but I think a lot sail by me too, and I strive to be somewhat of a tune cat (the above admissions regarding "Louise" and "April In Portugal" (?) notwithstanding). I don't like the idea of that somehow. I don't want people to have to explain clever quotes to me... but I guess it's inevitable to some extent (seeing as you can't turn on the radio these days and hear all the stuff Bird and Paul Desmond were listening to, go to the same movies, etc). At any rate, it's still a fun game, IMO.

[Jim R]

I expect io to be fileted.

You want flies- er, fries with that, sir?

Edited October 7, 2004 by Jim R

[Cornelius]

"Basie? I don't follow you..." [Jim R]

I was asking Dr. Rat if "April In Paris" is an instance of "Pop Goes The Weasel" that he dislikes.

"Favorite quote: Cannonball plopping Fascinatin' Rhythm right into his solo on Miles from Milestones." [jazzypaul]

Oh my lord, yes! This is such a sublime moment on a sublime solo on a sublime track on a sublime album. Just that solo, even just that one moment in that solo gives me hope, makes me feel it's a blessing to be alive. Cannonball Adderley on "Miles" is the very air on a crisp, blue spring morning.

/

Dr. Rat,

Thanks for that story and for a fond glimpse of Benny Carter.

As to your (rhetorical?) question about buying the Desmond box for your station, I think that if your library has gaping holes in it, then it would be better to spend your public station's money on used CDs online or elsewhere. With a modest budget you could scoop tons of monumental music for a few bucks a CD rather than going after Desmond at $17.00/disc. We all love Mosaic of course for what they do, but a public radio station has to look out for itself too. I'd first get as much great music on the cheap as I could.

Edited October 7, 2004 by Cornelius

[Jim R]

"Basie? I don't follow you..." [Jim R]

I was asking Dr. Rat if "April In Paris" is an instance of "Pop Goes The Weasel" that he dislikes.

Yeah, I went back and read what FFA posted while I was posting my (dumb) question, and the additional posts about Thad, etc. My bad. I must say, it all came rushing back, but I was drawing a blank at the time. I guess that seemed like the type of example (like "shave and a haircut") that would be too universal to associate with one particular artist or recording... but you remembered your history better than I.

[jazzbo]

There is always the RCA Desmond box which has most of the Mosaic and an additional session with Hall. . . and is cheaper. . . affordable for a station! (Can often be had at less than list price).

[Dr. Rat]

There is always the RCA Desmond box which has most of the Mosaic and an additional session with Hall. . . and is cheaper. . . affordable for a station! (Can often be had at less than list price).

OOOOO

OOOOO

Cornelius: point well taken.

Yeah, we've got some gaping holes that need addressing, and your method is certainly the way to go in addressing them.

Any suggestions where penny-pinching music lovers can go and get the goods quick, easy and cheap?

--eric