Quotes while soloing

[EKE BBB]

I´d like to know your impressions/opinions on the quotes to other tunes that many musicians (think of Dexter Gordon, for instance) intercalate while soloing.

Do you think (I´ve heard this opinion before) it´s a lack of creativity? It´s just a humorous hint?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I couldn´t find anything with a "only titles" search.

[Dr. Rat]

I´d like to know your impressions/opinions on the quotes to other tunes that many musicians (think of Dexter Gordon, for instance) intercalate while soloing.

Do you think (I´ve heard this opinion before) it´s a lack of creativity? It´s just a humorous hint?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I couldn´t find anything with a "only titles" search.

My opinion is that generally speaking this is a technique that gets abused and is of little interest to listeners. It can be done well when the soloist makes allusions to another piece or works a different melody subtly into the frameweork within which s/he is working, but suddenly jumping into "Pop Goes the Weasel" or whatever is what I think of as a stupid musician trick.

It requires skill and knowledge, but, aestehtically, it's on the level of dogs walking on their hind legs.

--eric

Edited so as to appear to be English.

Edited October 5, 2004 by Dr. Rat

[jazzbo]

I agree Eric, I think that when another tune is alluded to it is more effective. To me this seems to have been a humorous game or test of skill and knowledge to the early beboppers (though Pops was quoting Gershwin before them, it was going on before that and I'm sure the inventor of the game is long gone) and I really like the way Bird and Bags did it for example.

[Jim R]

Not a simple question. To me, it's not so much about how often a player does it, but how well they do it. It can be an art form unto itself. Dexter's name always comes up, because he tended to do it (although often very skillfully) frequently, and overtly. The thing is, he repeated so many of his favorite quote tunes that it could get to be almost too much of a joke sometimes. That's one negative for Dexter's quoting style. On the other hand, he was a master at taking a quote and wringing the shit out of it harmonically and rhythmically. If he didn't play it straight first, then it could be pretty adventurous.

I think the real intrigue and joy of it comes from the subtle approach, where a player sneaks in quotes (or allusions) of relatively obscure tunes (I agree, the "pop goes the weasel" type are pretty useless). The more of a tune cat one is, the more intriguing the game can get. Let's face it- we all probably have a LOT of quotes go right over our heads, because nobody knows every tune in the book. That's one thing about listening to someone like Paul Desmond (who also did the harmonic variations on his quotes). He was so damned sophisticated, I think a lot of his ideas have to be explained to people (including myself sometimes). And of course, Bird was also legendary for his quick wit and vast reservoir of material to draw upon.

At any rate, I think this really is an art form, and should be considered very carefully, despite the abusive approach taken by some players who are less creative and sophisticated in doing it.

Here's a little trivia question: what tune did Wayne Shorter quote in his solo on "Up Jumped Spring" (master take) from Blakey's "Three Blind Mice"?

[Dr. Rat]

Hey Jim,

Could you give an example of Desmond's quoting. I'd definitely be interested in hearing about that! I didn't really think of Desmond in this context, but I suppose I should have.

--eric

[Jim R]

eric, that's almost like asking me to give an example of Red Garland playing a block chord. B-) I don't have any specific examples in my brain at present, but trust me- Desmond was a master, and quotes are all over the place in his playing.

Here's a quote I just found from doing a quick Google search (from an essay by Peter Keepnews)...

Desmond also admired the narrative aspect of Parker's art, as he said in the radio interview: "You do always have a story to tell. it's one of the most impressive things about everything I've ever heard of yours." In performance, Parker told stories in part by sending musical messages to his friends and acquaintances in the audience by quoting the melodies of various songs. Desmond was also a master of the creative musical quotation, raising the possibility that he was inspired by Parker in this regard...

...Among the things Desmond and Mulligan shared was a penchant for the apt and expertly placed musical quote-that is, for leavening an improvisation with a few measures of a familiar melody-and there is some expert quoting to be found here. Judy Holliday, the great comic actress who was Mulligan's significant other at the time, gets the credit for naming The Blight of the Fumble Bee, but it was Mulligan's insertion of an off-the-wall light-classical quote into a jaunty up-tempo blues that inspired the name. And speaking of actresses named Judy, Desmond seems for some reason to have had old Judy Garland movies on the brain in the summer of 1962-how else to explain his allusion to On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe in the heat of his byplay with Mulligan on All the Things You Are, followed immediately by a few bars of The Trolley Song?

This subject is one that I've always meant to research more. I'll see what else I can find...

[rockefeller center]

Parker/Stravinsky at Birdland 1951

[Jim R]

Thanks for that Bird link. I only wish that piece had been longer!

Here's something I just stumbled upon online... part of somebody's jazz primer:

A technique used often in the bebop era and since is quoting, or using a

recognizable phrase from another composition or well-known recorded

improvisation as part of one's own improvisation. This is also some-

times called interpolation. You may have noticed this taking place in

solos you have heard. There is usually some humor value in quoting,

particularly if the interpolated work is something silly like "Pop Goes

The Weasel".

Now there's a guy who doesn't completely get it.

[JSngry]

It can be reeally stupid, really sublime, and almost anywhere in between.

Ain't whatcha do...

[Jim R]

From Doug Ramsey's notes in the Desmond/Hall Mosaic set:

There will be no effort here to identify all of Desmond's quotes. We don't have that much space. Besides, a good part of the fun of listening to Paul is being amazed and entertained by the craftiness with which he works into his solos all kinds of paraphrases, references, allusions and assorted musical metaphors. The play-by-play liner note approach could dilute the joy. But there is so much going on in I GET A KICK OUT OF YOU that perhaps mention of some of it will be forgiven. Near the end of the first chorus, Desmond covers what sounds like an unfortunate choice of notes with a little falling-away sequence that fully redeems the mistake. This must be the sort of mental sonar the poet Richard Wilbur was thinking of when he wrote: "in the very happiest intellection, a graceful error may correct the cave."

By repeating phrases an octave apart, Paul plays duets with himself, or comes as close as a single-note instrument will allow (unless you consider John Coltrane, and we don't have space for that, either). He quotes APRIL IN PORTUGAL, of all things. At the beginning of the third chorus, he offers proof by way of two ferocious sixteenth-note phrases that he is a formidable technician of the saxophone, a fact often overlooked because he rarely emphasized it so boldly. He quotes a difficult passage of Lee Konitz's solo from the alternate take of LADY BE GOOD with the Gerry Mulligan Quartet. He quotes HERSHEY BAR, a tune featured by Stan Getz in the early fifties when Getz had a quartet with guitarist Jimmy Raney. Those elements constitute a fraction, possibly only the most obvious fraction, of Desmond's inventiveness in just one long, fascinating solo.

So, right there, a good example of what I meant by the need for knowing a lot of tunes. "April In Portugal"? Somebody hum a few bars...

[Dan Gould]

It can be reeally stupid, really sublime, and almost anywhere in between.

Ain't whatcha do...

OK, then what's the verdict on quoting "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" in the middle of "Two Bass Hit"?

[Jim R]

It can be reeally stupid, really sublime, and almost anywhere in between.

Ain't whatcha do...

OK, then what's the verdict on quoting "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" in the middle of "Two Bass Hit"?

Kind of obvious. "Down For Double" would be more impressive.

[Dan Gould]

It can be reeally stupid, really sublime, and almost anywhere in between.

Ain't whatcha do...

OK, then what's the verdict on quoting "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" in the middle of "Two Bass Hit"?

Kind of obvious. "Down For Double" would be more impressive.

Guess I'm kinda simple minded then, cuz it brings a smile to my face.

[JSngry]

Those kinds of "obvious" things can be pretty funny sometimes, I think.

Now, if "funny" is not allowed, then let me out of the room!

[Free For All]

I'm all for musical puns like that. But it has to happen in a spontaneous manner, so it's not like the soloist does it every time, the same quote. It's like when someone says "tell that funny joke" it almost always bombs because it's not spontaneous. Once it's been done to death it's just not clever anymore.

For example, if I hear another Flintstones quote on rhythm changes I think I'm gonna yak.

Some quotes are so easy to interject that there's nothing particularly clever about them. I think quotes that reflect on the moment and aren't planned tend to work better. If you approach it like "I'm gonna be clever and quote a bunch of tunes" it seldom will come off.

Sonny Rollins said when he was soloing he would play a couple notes that would remind him of another tune and then feel obliged to finish it out. That seems more spontaneous to me.

[Jim R]

It can be reeally stupid, really sublime, and almost anywhere in between.

Ain't whatcha do...

OK, then what's the verdict on quoting "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" in the middle of "Two Bass Hit"?

Kind of obvious. "Down For Double" would be more impressive.

Guess I'm kinda simple minded then, cuz it brings a smile to my face.

Nah, Dan, I'm with you (although I have heard "Take me out..." a lot... probably from Griff, who seems to favor it). I should have added a smiley of some sort to my post (I was just trying to be clever... in a Monday morning quarterback kind of way ). Which reminds me- I don't think that quoting spontaneously with relatively obscure ideas is as easy as the greats make it appear sometimes.

[maren]

So, right there, a good example of what I meant by the need for knowing a lot of tunes.  "April In Portugal"?    Somebody hum a few bars...

I never thought I knew "April in Portugal" -- but it must be the source of Mickey Katz's "Pesach in Portugal" (speaking of silly)...

Edited October 5, 2004 by maren

[Dr. Rat]

So, right there, a good example of what I meant by the need for knowing a lot of tunes.  "April In Portugal"?     Somebody hum a few bars...

I never thought I knew "April in Portugal" -- but it must be the source of Mickey Katz's "Pesach in Portugal" (speaking of silly)...

Here we enter the realm of silly but mighty fine.

--eric

[Morganized]

Those kinds of "obvious" things can be pretty funny sometimes, I think.

Now, if "funny" is not allowed, then let me out of the room!

I love it.... I agree with Jim about the fun part. One of the problems of jazz lovers is the fact we tend to take the music too seriously. I agree that I do not enjoy performers who seem to go from one quote to the next with little thought in between. But a well placed quote can bring a smile to my face anytime.

Most listeners never want an artist to "phone in" a performance. We want the artist to express his/her emotion. Fortunately for all of us, many jazz artist are not sad all the time. Some even like to laugh and poke fun at themselves. Lighten up.

[Dr. Rat]

Those kinds of "obvious" things can be pretty funny sometimes, I think.

Now, if "funny" is not allowed, then let me out of the room!

I love it.... I agree with Jim about the fun part. One of the problems of jazz lovers is the fact we tend to take the music too seriously. I agree that I do not enjoy performers who seem to go from one quote to the next with little thought in between. But a well placed quote can bring a smile to my face anytime.

Most listeners never want an artist to "phone in" a performance. We want the artist to express his/her emotion. Fortunately for all of us, many jazz artist are not sad all the time. Some even like to laugh and poke fun at themselves. Lighten up.

Well there's funny and then there's the "Take my wife" joke. I don't object to funny. I never do a show that doesn't have something like Slim & Slam or Fats Waller or Babs Gonzalez in it.

But some stuff is just gratuitous or obvious.

And, I must say, a lot of the quoting I've heard is just that.

This brings to mind Grateful Dead fans I've seen who try to guess where a jam is going next before anyone else does, and then they pat themselves on the back for hearing the hints in the melodic line or whatever.

I've never been very good at associating melodic lines with song names, so maybe I just feel left out--I don't know.

But truthfully, funny isn't usually the effect that's accomplished. Perhaps providing opportunity for self-congratulation?

--eric

[EKE BBB]

And of course, Bird was also legendary for his quick wit and vast reservoir of material to draw upon.

I´ve read somewhere that Thomas Owens has identified over 100 of the different motifs that Bird most commonly used in creating his solos, and he put them together in a new and completely different way for every performance.

[RDK]

One of my favorite moments in all of jazz is when Bird quotes "Donkey Serenade" during the Massey Hall show...

[Jim R]

Those kinds of "obvious" things can be pretty funny sometimes, I think.

Now, if "funny" is not allowed, then let me out of the room!

I love it.... I agree with Jim about the fun part. One of the problems of jazz lovers is the fact we tend to take the music too seriously. I agree that I do not enjoy performers who seem to go from one quote to the next with little thought in between. But a well placed quote can bring a smile to my face anytime.

Most listeners never want an artist to "phone in" a performance. We want the artist to express his/her emotion. Fortunately for all of us, many jazz artist are not sad all the time. Some even like to laugh and poke fun at themselves. Lighten up.

Of course it can be fun (even if obvious or banal). Of course it can be funny. Quoting makes me laugh quite frequently. On the other hand, the sophisticated/advanced aspect of this (as I've tried to describe) can also be a lot of fun (and can also bring a smile, even if there's nothing overtly humorous going on).

I just happen to be fascinated by this topic, which is why I've gotten somewhat analytical about it. There's a lot of mystery involved, even for the most advanced musical scholar (think about what Doug Ramsey said about that Desmond track). There's often a lot in music that's under the surface...under the radar of the average listener. Trying to grasp as much of that as possible is very appealing, IMO. As I said, a lot can go right over your (and my) head, which is kind of a shame if you're not trying to dig what's going on (IMO).

eric, do you have the Desmond Mosaic set?

[Dr. Rat]

eric, do you have the Desmond Mosaic set?

I do not have the Desmond set, though it sounds like something I ought to have here at the radio station. Certainly such a purchase could be justified, don't you think. If you were a listener, wouldn't you want your station to have this set. Yes, I think you would, wouldn't you . . .

--eric

[Jim R]

Sonny Rollins said when he was soloing he would play a couple notes that would remind him of another tune and then feel obliged to finish it out. That seems more spontaneous to me.

That's the way it always occurs for me when I'm playing. The idea of coming up with a quote (especially a strategically placed quote) spontaneously that has some relevance to a situation during a live performance or even topically with the tune being played (like Dan's example)... if it's really happening spontaneously... that's pretty advanced stuff.

eric, GO FOR IT! B-)