Art Blakey 3/8/59 Unreleased Blue Note Sess

[Clunky]

Well I for one am generally quite happy with what's held back or put out by MC.

You only need to look at the reputation ruining Complete BuD powell on verve to see an example of inadequate quality control.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Oh please. I have the Verve Powell set and I still think Bud Powell is wonderful.

For a real reputation "ruiner" (or the reverse) - everyone should learn the subject's instrument and work on performing and improvising at that level. Now *that's* some perspective.

Mike

[Clunky]

Oh please. I have the Verve Powell set and I still think Bud Powell is wonderful.

For a real reputation "ruiner" (or the reverse) - everyone should learn the subject's instrument and work on performing and improvising at that level. Now *that's* some perspective.

Mike

Ok reputation ruining was a bit strong but I don't think the breakdown takes etc do Powell's memory any service. I too like Bud a lot.

[Shrdlu]

I'm with Mike on this, though I don't deny that there is some merit in not issuing a poor session. (I haven't heard the Powell Verves, by the way, so can't comment on them.)

Bud Powell's reputation is un-ruinable, as are those of all musicians who have produced great music, I would think. No-one thinks that musicians are prefect. Why, there is even a Coleman Hawkins squeak on one of the tracks in the Mosaic Buck Clayton set.

Going back to the Blakey session specifically, the reputations of all of the guys are very secure. The worst that could happen, if one heard this unissued session, is that they might not think it was a very good set*. For myself, I don't feel desperate to hear it, as I already have tons of recordings by all concerned.

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* The only time I got to hear Brubeck and Ellington live, they were on long, gruelling tours, they were obviously tired, and the concerts were very lack-luster, though not rubbish, of course. But that didn't alter my rating of those guys at all.

[Chuck Nessa]

ME FIRST - yeah that's the ticket. B-)

[Brad]

Reading this thread makes me feel like a damn outsider lookin in through the window. There's obviously not a fat chance that I'll even get a breath of this

[Hardbopjazz]

Same here.

[bertrand]

Upping this to see if one question ever got answered - who wrote 'Jimerick'?

Surprised to see how eloquent (albeit wordy) I was back then.

Jim's post (#41) made me guffaw.

Bertrand.

[bertrand]

P.S.

If ever Kevin were to edit a pseudo-releasable copy for MC, rather then send it to him, he should play it for him as a blindfold test. I doubt he would come up with the high-school student canard, based on Jim and Bill's positive comments on this session.

When was the last time MC changed his mind and put something out he had previously wanted to burn? It's been a while.

Bertrand.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

P.S.

If ever Kevin were to edit a pseudo-releasable copy for MC, rather then send it to him, he should play it for him as a blindfold test. I doubt he would come up with the high-school student canard, based on Jim and Bill's positive comments on this session.

When was the last time MC changed his mind and put something out he had previously wanted to burn? It's been a while.

Bertrand.

I did send Michael an "edited down" CD-R. Unfortunately, no serious editing, just picking the best take, so every tune has someone flubbing it.

I called Michael later and asked what he thought. He laughed and said simply "No". I pushed him a bit, with the standard, "But even a bad Jazz Messengers date is better than some of the stuff Blue Note is issuing today", and still, "No".

BTW, he gets more & more irritated every time I bring this date up so I am going to drop it. He was pretty upset when I first told him I got a copy to begin with. He's got something against this date, regardless of how we all feel. I suppose if another year goes by without any change in the EU copyright, we get a Fresh Sounds edition.

I always wonder what happened to make that session fall apart.

Kevin

[Dan Gould]

I always wonder what happened to make that session fall apart.

You mean aside from Hank's squeaky reed?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I always wonder what happened to make that session fall apart.

You mean aside from Hank's squeaky reed?

It was more than Hank. It's just kinda sloppy all around. Even Morgan flubs a few solos, just not as many as Mobley.

[danasgoodstuff]

There was a time (there was a place) that I would've 'had a hardon' (NOT literally!) for dates like this, but no more. The turning point (or one of them) came a few years ago when I went (with my spousal unit's blessing) to look at a collection of CDR's offered on a take it or leave it basis for the whole collection - 1,000+ pieces all meticulously catalogged with datess, locations, some personnel. I was intrigued, so I went to look - all laid out in shoe boxes in a decent apartment, the story made sense, it probably was at least mostly what it puported to be and some of the dates were recognizble collectors items on this level of rarety and desirability and some weren't. But I passed, not enough $ to lay down a wad of cash for a probably, not enough time to ever listen to it all, and not enough interest frankly - even if I won the lottery and could just do what I want all day, I'd rather hear my little girl make up songs that no one else will ever hear again. Now, that's my kind of rarity. And no, I don't regret passing, but if you're interested the stuff is out there. Me, I couldn't get out of there fast enuff.

[david weiss]

Hey everyone,

I was just revisiting this date, having just listened to it once back when you were all having this discussion and not all that carefully...

I'm curious, now that some 15 years have passed since this initial discussion, have your thoughts (if you've had any) changed about this date?

Do you think the passage of time gives this date a little more significance and makes it more worthy of release?

Also, to answer some 15 year old questions....

Way back when, I was actually asked by Michael to listen to the unreleased Lee Morgan session to see if there was anything worthy there to include as bonus tracks for The Sixth Sense. I really thought the 3 tracks selected were the only ones close to being worthy of release. I found the others to be really problematic. I'm surprised to see some here found them burning. To me, they really weren't....

As for this recording in question, I don't have a copy with all the takes including all the false starts and such. What I have is an assembled version with all master takes in sequence (6 tunes total, assembled by Alfred back in the day I'm told). Listened to this way, I find it to be a good date. Lee is really strong in particular. Hank is not in great shape but he does not squeak that much. I only hear one really bad one and a few lesser ones where you can still hear some saxophone tone in there. There are a few passages not executed to the usual high order of the Jazz Messengers and Blue Note Records but there is a lot of great playing here.....

[Dan Gould]

9 minutes ago, david weiss said:

 

As for this recording in question, I don't have a copy with all the takes including all the false starts and such. What I have is an assembled version with all master takes in sequence (6 tunes total, assembled by Alfred back in the day I'm told). Listened to this way, I find it to be a good date. Lee is really strong in particular. Hank is not in great shape but he does not squeak that much. I only hear one really bad one and a few lesser ones where you can still hear some saxophone tone in there. There are a few passages not executed to the usual high order of the Jazz Messengers and Blue Note Records but there is a lot of great playing here.....

I have the two disc set and condensed down to the takes marked as master or not rejected on the BN discography ... Hank's squeaky reed is certainly more noticeable on the breakdowns and false starts and full takes. I do agree that Lee is really strong and (I probably posted this before) there's a spot or two where the band falls apart behind him and Lee does this run of notes that sounds to me like "WTF fellas? I was burnin'!". He was getting frustrated for sure. 

Overall though David I don't think that the session measures up, and having the band play the same tunes live later on was a good idea by Alfred. The set doesn't measure up to the best of the LT releases Michael got issued way back when ...

[danasgoodstuff]

" Way back when, I was actually asked by Michael to listen to the unreleased Lee Morgan session to see if there was anything worthy there to include as bonus tracks for The Sixth Sense. I really thought the 3 tracks selected were the only ones close to being worthy of release. I found the others to be really problematic. I'm surprised to see some here found them burning. To me, they really weren't."  

I've now heard the rest of this date, sounds fine to me, FWIW.

[bertrand]

It would be good to confirm with Jymie Merritt that he is the composer of Jimerick.

 

This session is worthy of issue.

[romualdo]

how do you get a hold of this type of material ie unreleased Blue Note tracks/sessions? I have traded unreleased live/soundboard/broadcast material, Coltrane session stuff (was broadcast on radio though) etc etc but I've never seen unreleased Blue Note material on my searches - maybe I havn't looked hard enough

[Dan Gould]

4 hours ago, romualdo said:

how do you get a hold of this type of material ie unreleased Blue Note tracks/sessions? I have traded unreleased live/soundboard/broadcast material, Coltrane session stuff (was broadcast on radio though) etc etc but I've never seen unreleased Blue Note material on my searches - maybe I havn't looked hard enough

You have to know the right people, and it seems the blood oath not to share haphazardly or to even think about posting on trader networks or bit-torrent sites was taken very seriously.

[JohnS]

All the tracks were on YouTube.

[Dan Gould]

43 minutes ago, JohnS said:

All the tracks were on YouTube.

Oh that Joe Louis guy. Can't remember what was learned about his family connection (?).

[Kevin Bresnahan]

53 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Oh that Joe Louis guy. Can't remember what was learned about his family connection (?).

I am pretty sure that "Joe Louis" was pseudonym of the guy who had the tape that I got a copy of. The last time I looked on YouTube, he was still there and several session tape videos were still posted.

Actually, here he is: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJcWXaSyAKQKT5k9IoB_nhQ

The "Blues For Mr. Tatum" session is up there in his videos. There are 3 tracks that were not released.

Ah - here is one:

 

Here are all of them that he posted: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+louis+3-8-59

Edited July 18, 2019 by bresna

[bertrand]

Did anyone get a CD copy of the Kenny Dorham with Grant Green, or it YouTube only?

[romualdo]

On 18/07/2019 at 11:04 PM, Dan Gould said:

Oh that Joe Louis guy. Can't remember what was learned about his family connection (?).

Thanks for the tip - was able to download the whole session (over 2 hours of master & alternate takes) as MP3's from you tube. The chatter before, after & during the various takes is a bonus for me (hear very little of that on official released material). Lee is on fire here. Enjoying this......

[hgweber]

On 10.10.2004 at 6:13 PM, bresna said:

I swear sometimes MC listens to these things once, forms an opinion, and simply doesn't go back again. I also think he's overstating the problems with this date. I do believe there wouldn't be a way to put this out by simply "choosing takes" as nearly every take has a little problem, but with some judicious editing, even I could make this a decent Jazz Messenger's CD. I just don't have the editing software or, at this time in my life, patience to do this.

 

BTW, MC has downplayed this date for as long as I've been talking to him... maybe 15 years by now... and when I got this, I was rather shocked at how it sounded. Not great, but not a bunch of high schoolers!

 

I still think Morgan was the star of the date.

 

FWIW, MC has said similar things about other dates and after re-visiting the date later, changed his mind a released some of them. Grant Green's 1st date certainly fits this description. He gave that a "thumbs-down" for many years but gave it a fresh spin and found it acceptable. He does change his mind. It's one of the things about him that I like. We may see this date someday.

 

Hey, if someone has this session and is handy with editing tools, edit the session down to just the 5 tunes and send me the finished product. I'll get it to MC "blind" and see how he reacts. He could be swayed.

 

Later,

Kevin

does this kind of stuff happen in classical music as well? are there people sitting on unpublished mozart pieces claiming they are not good enough for release?

btw i am convinced that the grant green sessions (the one with kelly an the trio standards date) were only released to cash in on the grant green "revival" a few years back. both are not very good, to put it mildly. grant seems starstruck on the kelly date and totally uninspired on the standards date.

otoh, he is totally on fire on the unreleased date with quebec...