Free / Avant-Garde Jazz Forum

[Bright Moments]

I'm still waiting for someone to show me something that CAN'T fit in the existing structure of this board.

here's something.

[Jim R]

...confidence in what you're into translates into being able to bring it into the world to at least some degree, w/o fear of getting pummelled (hey, that;s what scar tissue is for, to protect you in the future, right?). And it also translates into not fearing or feeling the compulsion to attack anything else that's different (older or newer).

I'm always glad that the uptight (man, I've got to expand my vocabulary) folks seem to be in the minority. I believe in freedom of expression, and any insecure type who bluntly (and often blindly) puts down what they happen to not like- especially if they are artists themselves- always looks very foolish, IMO.

What IS unlimited is the ways to tell those stories - there's as many perspectives as there are individuals...

And anybody (new) who comes along with their (new) perspective is... "new" in a way.

...New individuals from new times, new perspectives on the same old stories (aand just because the perspectives changes radically, and the form of the story follows suit, does not (no no no no NO!)  meant that the story itself changes. It can't, unless the fundamental human condition does, And how long have we all been waiting for THAT to happen?

You mean everybody wants to get laid, right?

[JSngry]

See the post above yours for confirmation of that!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Ahem, well, if the individual pictured is an avant garde musician with a recording or performance that needs discussing, I'd say Artists forum. If on the other hand, that's a politician (hard to tell with my glasses fogged up), then I'd go with Politics. If that's a discographer - man, I've been hanging around the wrong people.

Mike

And besides, I asked for something that can't fit into the existing structure of this board, not something that can't fit into her dress.

Edited October 2, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald

[7/4]

And besides, I asked for something that can't fit into the existing structure of this board, not something that can't fit into her dress.

On my monitor, the photo is so large, I have to scroll right to check it out.

[paul secor]

I voted yes, even though I don't like to see styles of music segregated.

It does seem that newer styles of music are more and more shunted off to the Funny Rat thread - not the Rat posters fault - it just seems to have happened.

[maren]

Disagree with labeling idea, too. For the same reasons. Why on earth would we need to label everything AG? Then BB (Bebop), SW (Swing), NO (New Orleans), CH (Chicago), BL (Blues), WC (West Coast), EC (East Coast), F (Funk), CL (Classical), PR (Progressive Rock), P (Punk), NW (New Wave), BA (Baroque), TT (Twelve Tone), MT (Microtonal), IC (Indian Classical), EM (Electronic Music), TF (Traditional Folk), C (Country), BG (Bluegrass), RB (Rhythm & Blues), and so on and on.

and lest we forget: OMFUG!!!

(that's a "No" vote, BTW)

[Guest Chaney]

Mike: Personally, I'm not at all disagreeing with you and I can't answer your challenge as to a musical topic that can't find a home on this board.

As to the seperate forum issue, the vinylphiles petitioned for their own forum and they got it. The result? Put bluntly, they are getting to hang out with their own and we others can more easilly ignore them. (Freaks! Talk about livin' in the past! )

I could see the same thing happening if all things different were sequestered in such a way.

Again, my only wish is that others could perhaps be exposed to this seemingly other music. Sprinkling the board with multiple threads would seem to make more sense than hiding treasures in one thread but I believe you know what would likely happen: each thread would die of malnutrition.

Hell, I'm not feeling anything different than every other person on this board. We love this music and it fucking pains us that the men and women who give their lives to this art form get so little notice. They struggle to live, they create, we few consume, and they die. They deserve so much more.

Re Funny Rat, it is what it is. It's just an extension of what a few of us were doing through e-mails. It was brought here as a convenience. While it has lived very near the top of the Recommendations forum for nearly one year, if there was a way to throw it to the bottom and hold it there, we'd still post and have our fun. It's just one room in a very large house.

[Guest Chaney]

PS: Buy Gianni Gebbia's Zen Widow. It's wonderful.

Indie Jazz

[Jazzmoose]

Well...I understand the arguments against, but I'm going to vote for it. Mainly because it pisses Dan off...

Seriously, I'm not sure I can explain why, but it is nice to have this stuff together in one spot because I'm new to it. While I enjoy my Blue Note stuff as much as the next guy here, this is the stuff that really excites me. And whether we like it or not, jazz is fractured today. Nothing we do is going to alter that reality. And while I enjoy the stuff I see in the Funny Rat thread together, the thread is too long to be managable any more. Creating more threads will weaken the chance of seeing the info, yet keeping it all on one thread does the same.

[Matthew]

To my mind, the plan fact about the board is that very few people have an interest in Free/AG jazz. It's sad because their missing out on great music, but that's the way it is. To use just one example: How much does Sonny Clark's music get discussed as opposed to Cecil Taylor's? And most of the Taylor talk is about his Blue Note releases. I brought the Peter Brotzmann thread up just to see if anyone wants to talk about this great musician; we'll see during the week how it goes, but I just don't think most board members are there with his music. Does that make this board bad? NO, this is a greaat board to be a part of, and I have learned, and will continue to learn a great deal here, but it can't be everything to everyone. So, this is just a longwinded way of saying: leave things as is, but maybe I need to branch out to other forums every now and see what happens. BTW, if it's going to piss Dan off, I'm voting yes also!

[Guest Chaney]

A valuable repository of information and opinion on many Funny sounds:

Jazzcorner's Speakeasy Archive

:sniffle:

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I completely disagree that "very few people" on this board have an interest in avant garde music. That's not at all what I have seen in my experience here. I recall seeing great threads about William Parker, Alvin Fielder, Matana Roberts, Matthew Shipp, and more. I just did a very quick and dirty count on members who participated in a few threads relating to so-called avant garde music and came up with over 100 (without even looking at the Funny Rat thread).

I believe that separating out things (like the Funny Rat thread seems to have done) gives a very warped view of reality. You *think* that there are just a few people interested because you spend so much time sequestered together with them. I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100.

But really, there are a lot of people (me, for one) who have never posted in the Funny Rat thread and yet are still interested in avant garde music. They may (as I do) have interests in a lot of other things too. It's not my primary focus.

Having a variety of threads in their LOGICAL locations would just spread the word about this music even more. A reader who might never have heard of someone could see a name and get interested. And isn't that what should be happening? If you put all the avant garde music in its little cubbyhole and say "this is the scary difficult-to-understand music" - you're not going to encourage curious listeners. From my experience as a teacher, you follow the Mingus adage: Let my children hear music. Put it out there without categories and warnings and let them hear it.

The ghetto is the *wrong* way to go. Segregation never! Integration now!

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, from every forum and every thread, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, Sonny Clark and Peter Brotzmann, Jelly Roll Morton and Marilyn Crispell, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last."

Mike

[Guest Chaney]

I believe that separating out things (like the Funny Rat thread seems to have done) gives a very warped view of reality. You *think* that there are just a few people interested because you spend so much time sequestered together with them. I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100.

That's easy enough to do. (I count 52 -- certain thread crappers included. B-) )

Д.Д. 787

king ubu 620

John B 493

Chaney 329

J.A.W. 240

couw 87

Gary 79

Nate Dorward 78

P.L.M 68

Geoff 59

gnhrtg 59

Matthew 43

Clunky 41

brownie 29

7/4 26

jon abbey 19

David Ayers 18

Late 17

alankin 16

clifford_thornton 16

Chuck Nessa 12

EKE BBB 10

rockefeller center 10

catesta 4

Jazzmoose 4

AmirBagachelles 4

alejo 4

ghost of miles 3

WD45 3

jgthomas 3

Jim Dye 2

.:.impossible 2

Joe Christmas 2

shrugs 2

David Gitin 2

Swinger 2

Steve Reynolds 2

JSngry 1

Big Wheel 1

Peter 1

Adam 1

jazzbo 1

Claude 1

Leeway 1

mgraham333 1

randyhersom 1

DavidM 1

KOB 1

Rob C 1

Brandon Burke 1

dangme 1

Craig23 1

I'll have to refer you to my post(s) above as to both the origin and purpose (or non-purpose) of the Funny Rat.

[EKE BBB]

...I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100...

52.

5 of them with 240 or more posts.

Only 21 of them with more than 10 posts.

29 of them with 4 or less posts.

Edited October 3, 2004 by EKE BBB

[Guest Chaney]

EKE BBB: Those are the Funny Rat numbers.

Have a look though at the total number of members on this board and the number of posts for each. I think you'll be shocked at the number of members who've never posted, posted just one time, posted less that ten times, etc.

As with the Funny Rat, the bulk of the talking on this board issues from relatively few members.

[couw]

As with the Funny Rat, the bulk of the talking on this board issues from relatively few members.

it does?

I bet it's all 7/4's fault.

[7/4]

As with the Funny Rat, the bulk of the talking on this board issues from relatively few members.

it does?

I bet it's all 7/4's fault.

[king ubu]

so I guess I am a thread crapper, right?

[Guest Chaney]

so I guess I am a thread crapper, right? 

Oh, the BIGGEST! We you though.

B-)

THE BOARD: 851 members

Never posted: 188

Posted one time: 97

Posted 2 - 5 times: 109

Posted 6 - 10 times: 59

TOTAL: 453

I want to hear from THESE folks.

[couw]

[Matthew]

I completely disagree that "very few people" on this board have an interest in avant garde music. That's not at all what I have seen in my experience here. I recall seeing great threads about William Parker, Alvin Fielder, Matana Roberts, Matthew Shipp, and more. I just did a very quick and dirty count on members who participated in a few threads relating to so-called avant garde music and came up with over 100 (without even looking at the Funny Rat thread).

I believe that separating out things (like the Funny Rat thread seems to have done) gives a very warped view of reality. You *think* that there are just a few people interested because you spend so much time sequestered together with them. I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100.

While I always respect your opinions Mr. Fitzgerald, on some points I have to disagree. I thought maybe I did miss out on some great discussions so I did a search on the four names you mentioned. Parker does have a lot of post, but of the other three examples you use, there has not been one sustained, serious discussion of those artists. My second point is that all of the people who participate in the "Funny Rat" thread realize it is a small group of people that keep it going; heck, there have been times I've faded out of the thread for weeks at a time, so I wasn't just going off that experience, but off my perception of the board as a whole. I was not using "Funny Rat" as a litmus test for anything. Actually, the one thread where you can see an interest in new music is "What Are You Listening to Now.." But a lot of people do not share their impressions of the music, so what can you do? So there could be a deeper interest in this music by board member then I feel, but it's an unexpressed interest and I think the whole question of this thread is: how to make that interest more readily and easily expressed.

[Dr. Rat]

I believe that separating out things (like the Funny Rat thread seems to have done) gives a very warped view of reality. You *think* that there are just a few people interested because you spend so much time sequestered together with them. I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100.

That's easy enough to do. (I count 52 -- certain thread crappers included. B-) )

Д.Д. 787

king ubu 620

John B 493

Chaney 329

J.A.W. 240

couw 87

Gary 79

Nate Dorward 78

P.L.M 68

Geoff 59

gnhrtg 59

Matthew 43

Clunky 41

brownie 29

7/4 26

jon abbey 19

David Ayers 18

Late 17

alankin 16

clifford_thornton 16

Chuck Nessa 12

EKE BBB 10

rockefeller center 10

catesta 4

Jazzmoose 4

AmirBagachelles 4

alejo 4

ghost of miles 3

WD45 3

jgthomas 3

Jim Dye 2

.:.impossible 2

Joe Christmas 2

shrugs 2

David Gitin 2

Swinger 2

Steve Reynolds 2

JSngry 1

Big Wheel 1

Peter 1

Adam 1

jazzbo 1

Claude 1

Leeway 1

mgraham333 1

randyhersom 1

DavidM 1

KOB 1

Rob C 1

Brandon Burke 1

dangme 1

Craig23 1

I'll have to refer you to my post(s) above as to both the origin and purpose (or non-purpose) of the Funny Rat.

Just for a recap:

What would be the advantages of having an AG section as opposed to interested folk just posting album reviews and notices and what-all in the already existing sections (Artists, New Releases, Re-issues, Miscellaneous Music, etc.) ?

Also, the numbers on the funny rat thread are pretty interesting -- posting is very much dominated by a very few people: Look at the steep dropoff between J.A.W. and cuow. That's a factor of three.

I do feel that some of the stuff in the funny rat thread needs outing in the general areas of the board.

[Dr. Rat]

After all, everyone else is looking in the rearview mirror, right?

yeah! and they smell too!

It aint so bad if you wash them once a week.

--eric

[Dr. Rat]

I've just been rereading the whole thread, and I don't have an axe to grind here.

But it would seem to me that the problem here arises out of the Funny Rat thread.

A lot of the people who are voting in support of the AG forum are contratsing what that would be like in contrast to everything being "buried" in the Funny Rat thread.

But I think there is a middle way here that would be better that either alternative, that is, as Michael Fitzgerald and Jsngry and several other folks are suggesting, that what gets posted in Funny Rat get posted in the appropraite general fora.

There does seem to be a great deal of attachment to the like-minded socializing Funny Rat makes possible, but I think the proposal is that at least some of the post volume in Funny Rat can be sacrificed in the interest of a more general airing of the discussion.

I think this end can be accomplished best via the middle way.

I think when we have someone like Jsngry saying he loves the music discussed in Funny Rat but rarely visits the thread, we're missing opportunities.

--eric