use of quarter-tones or microtonality in pop/rock

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, first my specific question (for those of you with better ears than I have).

On Bjork's 2nd solo album ("Post"), on the tune "Army of Me" -- are the descending line of closely spaced notes... ...are they quarter-tones (one quarter-tone apart each)??? --- or are they half-steps??? My ears say quarter-tones, but I'd like to get some other opinions, confirming or otherwise.

By the way, there's a good sample of from the tune "Army of Me" on the Amazon.com website: CLICK HERE. The notes in question repeat several times, over and over, and first occur at the 5-second mark in the sample-track (over seconds #5, #6, and #7).

Quarter-tones, or half-tones. What say you???

=============

Also, I thought it might be fun to bring up the intentional use of microtones and/or quarter tones in Pop and/or Rock music (especially songs that have had some popular success, either on the charts, or on the radio).

The first band I thought of, in terms of this larger topic, was Primus -- particularly the bass player, who sounds like a Harmalodic kind of player if ever there was one, at least to my ears (or pretty damn close). Pick your favorite Primus album from Amazon (if you're looking for on-line samples), and I figure everything sounds micro-tonal, at least to some degree -- again, mostly in the bass (which has to be fretless, right??)

Another possible example, which seems very microtonal to me (for damn near the whole track), is the Red Hot Chili Peppers, specifically the track "Give It Away" (from the album "Blood Sugar Sex Magik"). While I wouldn't call it overtly Harmalodic sounding, I do think that there is some similarity in a general sense (again, at least to my ears).

Also, there was a popular song by the band Elastica, called "Connection" (from the album "Elastica", their self-titled debut, from 1994) -- that had a main vocal melody-line that is very microtonal, for damn near the whole song, chorus and verses too. It had quite a bit of radio-play around here, at least on the alternative stations.

More generally speaking, certainly there's lots and lots of bending of notes and such, in popular music -- but I'm thinking of more overt microtonality (throughout a given song), and the Bjork question seemed like a good way to kick off the topic.

Discuss...

Edited September 30, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Noj]

I'm a fan of Bjork, Primus, and early RHCP (particularly the George Clinton stuff)...

...but I am useless to you in this discussion since I haven't studied music in that way. Back to school.

[Joe G]

The notes in the Bjork tune are D, D flat, and C. Half steps, in other words. Cool sounding tune, BTW.

Microtones in western pop music are extremely rare. Or maybe that should read intentional microtonal melodies are extremely rare. Most of the time, it's simply people who can't really sing or play their instruments in tune, or like you say, there's just some push/pull going on that stretches the tuning, sometimes in a pleasing way. Also there are different tuning systems, as you probably are aware, so that the equal tempered major 3rd is 14 cents* sharp of the major 3rd in just intonation. (Check out Miles' solo on Freddie Freeloader: his minor seventh on the four chord is quite a bit flat from the piano's minor seventh. But it's still "in tune", because he's playing the seventh partial of the overtone series, whereas the piano is playing the equal tempered minor seventh. Sorry if that went over anyone's head. )

(this is where 7/4 says, there he goes again... nevertheless... )

From the book Harmonic Experience:

Musicians often use the term microtone, which means any small interval, when they mean quarter tone, which means half a semitone. The music in which quarter tones most usually occur is Arabic music, where typically they bisect major/minor chormatic pairs.

... for example, the quarter tone that sits right in-between E and E flat.

Some jazz musicians have delved into quartertonal and microtonal music, like Brad Shepik (in his Balkan jazz ensembles), and I heard one Tribal Tech record where Scott Kinsey played a solo using microtones programmed into his keyboard. W.A. Mathieu recommends Easley Blackwood's CD Microtonal Compositions as an example of the potential of equal temperments from thirteen to twenty-four tones per octave.

I'm not sure if Harmolodics belongs in this discussion. Actually, I'm not even sure what Harmolodics is! (I've heard the term, but who among us can explain it???)

*cent: a unit of measurement that equals 1/100th of a semitone, and 1/1200th of an octave, in equal temperment only.

[Rooster_Ties]

The notes in the Bjork tune are D, D flat, and C. Half steps, in other words. Cool sounding tune, BTW.

Thanks Joe!!

Every time I thought I had it dead to rights as being quarter-tones, I'd turn tail and say - nah, it's just half-steps.

I could probably pick out the notes better if they were separate from the rest of the tune (nothing else to distract my ear).

In any case, I'm glad that's cleared up. Thanks again, Joe!!

===

And I guess that means there's even odds that a couple of my other examples (see first post in this thread) will turn out to be something less than micro-tonal as well. Can anybody suggest why my ear might be telling me there's something freaky going on with the tuning in those songs, so much so that I think they're microtonal?? (Or maybe a couple of them really are microtonal -- only time will tell.)

Thanks in advance for any further discussion anyone has on this topic.

(I suppose sooner or later we'll get into the Charles Ives works for two pianos, where one is tuned a quarter-tone higher than the other one. And I suspect there's plenty besides Ives, that've done the same thing. For instance, I'm pretty sure I have a recording of a John Corigliano work for two similarly tuned pianos. Getting off-topic, I know, since this was supposed to be about pop and/or rock music.)

[7/4]

Microtones in western pop music are extremely rare. Or maybe that should read intentional microtonal melodies are extremely rare.

[7/4]

The neutral third between the minor and major third is pretty common in the blues. It's the "bent", slightly raised blues third.

[maren]

Anyone familiar with that dancehall crossover hit "Action" (by Terror Fabulous and Nadine Sutherland, around 1993: "I need some action, tender satisfaction")? That seemed intentionally microtonal -- with a didgeridoo-sounding bass line and Nadine Sutherland singing "extra-major" on her major thirds -- it was that not-quite-settled tonality that made me really like it -- and this from a genre that usually leaves me cold.

[7/4]

Anyone familiar with that dancehall crossover hit "Action" (by Terror Fabulous and Nadine Sutherland, around 1993: "I need some action, tender satisfaction")?  That seemed intentionally microtonal -- with a didgeridoo-sounding bass line and Nadine Sutherland singing "extra-major" on her major thirds -- it was that not-quite-settled tonality that made me really like it -- and this from a genre that usually leaves me cold.

I'm pretty sure I missed that one.

Barbershop quartets are always a good example of a tuning using the seventh harmonic.

The interval of the harmonic series are represented by ratios, the seventh harmonic, for example is 7/4.

[7/4]

A few years ago when Nancy Sanatra was last in the press ('95?), she was on the Today show and she said the descending bass line in "These Boots Are Made for Walking" was quarter tones. I never checked, but she's Nancy Sanatra and those boots are made for walking.

[7/4]

I don't know, but I've been told, a big leg woman's got no soul. I've also been told that Kurt Cobain and Sinead O'Connor sing in 19 tone equal temperament.

I'm 7/4 and I have no proof of the above, it's all rumor.

[7/4]

The neutral third between the minor and major third is pretty common in the blues. It's the "bent", slightly raised blues third.

And in North African and Middle Eastern music too.

[king ubu]

Joe--

Are you familiar w/the playing of yr namesake, Joe Maneri? He comes at it three ways-- Hawkins, Lester Young & let's say Bird; post-Webern/Varese 20th c. classical; AND-- AND-- let's generalize & call it Greek/Armenian/Turkish dance music-- ** sometimes ** he lets it rip on clarinet like it's some Brooklyn or Queens wedding gig circa 1947 & it's fucking awesome.

love that one! Will keep it in mind next time I spin the discs I have of his!

ubu

Edited October 1, 2004 by king ubu

[.:.impossible]

re: harmolodic

I understand that microtones can be an element of harmolodics, but I don't think they are a defining element of harmolodics.

[7/4]

re: harmolodic

I understand that microtones can be an element of harmolodics, but I don't think they are a defining element of harmolodics.

I don't think they have much of anything to do with each other.

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...harmolodic&st=0

Edited October 2, 2004 by 7/4

[.:.impossible]

I didn't think so. I wasn't sure if Rooster was making a connection or not. Thanks 7.

[7/4]

I didn't think so. I wasn't sure if Rooster was making a connection or not. Thanks 7.

Sure thing!

[7/4]

*cent: a unit of measurement that equals 1/100th of a semitone, and 1/1200th of an octave, in equal temperment only.

Not in equal temperament only, it's just another way of dividing up thte octave.

[Joe G]

True. It's my understanding that that particular unit of measurement came out of the 12 tone equal tempered scale though, so I guess it's more accurate to say cents correspond more readily to 12 tone E.T.

[Joe G]

Did that make any cents?

[7/4]

Did that make any cents?

Yes. Thanks for clearing that up. I spend so much time thinking about a few cents here and there, and I forget about the history!