I want to make something perfectly clear...

[Leeway]

I do not doubt that UA has had many transactions that went off OK. So consider my chagrin when I ended up in this sutation. I have tried to be patient with UA. Before the e-mail he quoted, I asked him a couple of times when and where he mailed the package-- he ignored those questions, until I insisted he tell me. Then his response was- well, "snotty," in my view. I felt trying to put me on the defensive, rather than recognize my concern. I didn't like that.

I wanted to be patient, and I think, actually, I have been--but he doesn't make it easy. I held off putting anything in Org because I didn't want to be accusatory in public. I wasn't reassured by the fact he had deleted his sale thread, and also his curious announcement that he was leaving the Board (I guess he has changed his mind ). I was told on good authority that he had done this before in similar circumstances when something went sour. Is that correct? I was also informed that he had tried to post under different names when a similar controversy broke out? Is that correct? I have no reason to doubt these board members were telling me the truth.

It was only at that point I sent him the e-mail he quoted (without my knowledge or consent-- that should tell you something about his character). I felt that after 30 days, possible redress in my case might not be possible. So I was candid with him. So now it has come to this. Allan, keep the CDs or the money or both. What goes around comes around, as they say.

[undergroundagent]

Listen....

If you wanted a refund (or some compensation) you should have just asked me. I'm not hiding anywhere. It was $20!!!!

I feel as though you attacked me and there was no call for it. I would've kept this a private issue except you threatened me. There was no need for that. I'm an up-front guy who has nothing to gain by keeping these two discs.

I am not happy that you haven't received your CDs, but what do you want me to do about it!?!?! I can't predict what the post office will do. Furthermore, I can't even guarantee they will arrive. That is the nature of such transactions when one doesn't insure them. I have had CDs go missing, but how can I fault the guy who sent them. They've done their part. I just think you could have handled this differently.

I'm sorry that you haven't got them. I can't, however, in good conscience admit some fault that isn't mine. They were sent!

P.S. I've returned to the board to address this issue, and to let people know I'm here in the event that something has gone wrong with their transaction.

Edited September 26, 2004 by undergroundagent

[Leeway]

Listen....

If you wanted a refund (or some compensation) you should have just asked me. I'm not hiding anywhere. It was $20!!!!

I feel as though you attacked me and there was no call for it. I would've kept this a private issue except you threatened me. There was no need for that. I'm an up-front guy who has nothing to gain by keeping these two discs.

I am not happy that you haven't received your CDs, but what do you want me to do about it!?!?! I can't predict what the post office will do. Furthermore, I can't even guarantee they will arrive. That is the nature of such transactions when one doesn't insure them. I have had CDs go missing, but how can I fault the guy who sent them. They've done their part. I just think you could have handled this differently.

I'm sorry that you haven't got them. I can't, however, in good conscience admit some fault that isn't mine. They were sent!

P.S. I've returned to the board to address this issue, and to let people know I'm here in the event that something has gone wrong with their transaction.

P.S. I've returned to the board to address this issue, and to let people know I'm here in the event that something has gone wrong with their transaction.

Edited September 26, 2004 by Leeway

[undergroundagent]

And why don't you tell them about the refund that you have? Or didn't that happen either?

I hope they arrive tomorrow so you can look at the postage stamp and realize how wrong you were about all of this.

[Leeway]

The following post might be of interest to those still interested in this subject(maybe even UA might benefit from it):

From thread: "Do not do business with Underground Agent unless you like to be abused" 11/14/03- posted by Jazzhound:

I made an offer like his post said and he sent me a abusive pm!

This should not be tolerated by this community!

Your post did mention offers and thats why you deleted the Weston post.

You should be banned from this board.

(this guy is a liar also.)

You should be embarassed!

The right thing to do would be to apologize instead of attacking me. but you have to have character to do that!

Posted by UA:

Well, I've been called a liar and cheat in the same post.

You know I don't have the best relationship with some people on this board. There have been disagreements, and transactions gone sour. Some were my fault, some were theres. I don't proclaim to be perfect, but I'll tell you what...if you think for one minute you're going to get the best of me by posting on this board how bad of a person I am, you're sorely mistaken.

Posted by UA- who complains about HIS PM being published

I've apoligized twice already — and that's twice as much as the other guy has. I suppose everyone has there own threshold of what's abuse and what's not, but the bottom line is that I know what was intended and it was not meant to slight this gentlemen. On the other hand, if he interpreted it as that, why must it be a public issue? He could've easily resolved this is in private. Instead, he's done this

Soul Stream, Forum post 11/15/03:

This board is acting as a clearinghouse for undergroundagents sales and trades. His treatment of fellow board members during such transactions should be concern for us all.

Also, those interested (and if you're not, I can't blame you B-) ) might want to check the thread from 11/17/03, "Things are never as simple as they appear" posted by grey"

UA posted:

In fact, check that. I think the time has come that I do resign. Honeslty, whatever disagreements I've had with people in the past, I've never embarrassed them in public or, in this case, on the board. I've always made a point of keeping what's private, PRIVATE!

Posted by grey:

Unforetunately, it concerns me. Last year I tactfully asked you never to reply again to my offerings. But you couldn't leave well enough alone. Bandito registers last week, posts once to me on my thread, sends me two PMs asking for soul-jazz, it is all done on your computer but it is not you, it is your cousin. This carries as much credibility as why I was never reimbursed last year.

Posted by UA-- the man himself--apparently I'm not the first to have a problem with him:

As far as grey goes...sure, there was an issue awhile back that occurred on the Blue Note board, but again that's no one's business! I've had problems with many people buying/trading with me on here, AAJ, and back on BNBB that were either resolved, or let die because it simply wasn't worth the hassle. The bottom line is that whatever problem he has/had with me, he should have resolved it with me! Instead, the man has chosen to bring back an issue that is probably a year and half old and make it everyone's business. How can I respond to that in a way that doesn't make me look guilty?!?!? After all, I'm already the focus of another assault by jazzhound in which many board members already question my credibility.

And same tactic:

My decision to leave the board has nothing to do with the fact that I can't take what's being thrown my way by a few board members. Rather, it's because there's no enjoyment in coming here if all it's going to be is "Bash Allan" everyday. I come here to learn about jazz, ask questions, and maybe buy/sell a few things, but I need not waste my time if I have to constantly explain myself to people who certainly don't constitute a jury.

UA's statement says itall:

"I've had problems with many people buying/trading with me on here, AAJ, and back on BNBB that were either resolved, or let die because it simply wasn't worth the hassle."

Just a little history for fellow Board members.

Edited September 26, 2004 by Leeway

[undergroundagent]

And after a refund you say!?!?!

This is amusing now. What is your problem? You bring up old news that didn't involve selling/trading CDs to prove what?

Quite honestly, our communications are through. I expect that you will do the honorable thing and pay me back the money once the discs arrive.

Edited September 26, 2004 by undergroundagent

[Leeway]

UA, you (and others) ought to read these threads and ponder how you have become tangled in so many doubtful affairs. They all sound a lot like the current situation. You're own comment indicts you:

I've had problems with many people buying/trading with me on here, AAJ, and back on BNBB that were either resolved, or let die because it simply wasn't worth the hassle.

I was puzzled by your comment about payment, but, checking my e-mail, I see that you have sent a payment through Pay Pal. You could have done that, or made an agreement to do that, before YOU started this thread.

[undergroundagent]

Anthony —

The same applies for you. Rather than sending a malicious email, you COULD have asked me for a refund and been polite.

There has never been any problems with anyone. The only problem I've ever had is with grey (at the BNBB), and no one lost anything in that instance besides pride.

Edited September 26, 2004 by undergroundagent

[couw]

so, can we have a poll now on who left the best impression here?

[wolff]

I finished my popcorn. Should I get some more?

[J.A.W.]

I finished my popcorn. Should I get some more?

[7/4]

so, can we have a poll now on who left the best impression here?

ok, here's my impression of couw.

[John Tapscott]

I'm not commenting on how this was handled and I've never bought anything from UA, though he lives 25 miles away.

But two things come to mind. Leeway ordered and paid for the CD's on Sept 1. I think it's reasonable for him to assume they would be mailed within 2-3 days after that day.

UA claims he mailed them on either Sept 8 or Sept 9, perhaps a few days later than he should have. BUT I have learned from years of experience that on cross-border shipments of recordings, you shoudn't even bother making an inquiry, let alone go ballistic about a missing shipment until AT LEAST A MONTH after it's mailed. Leeway JUMPED THE GUN by a couple of weeks at least. I am expecting two CD's in the mail now that were mailed from the US at least two weeks ago. They're a bit later than usual, but they'll be here in due course. I had a Mosaic order mis-shipped to England before finally arriving in Canada (in a British mail bag) some six weeks after being mailed. Some CD's I sent to a friend in Norway took 2 months to arrive.

As I said in my earlier posting, patience please. If something has been mailed it WILL arrive, though it may be later than you expect.

[wolff]

BUT I have learned from years of experience that on cross-border shipments of recordings, you shoudn't even bother making an inquiry, let alone go ballistic about a  missing shipment until AT LEAST A MONTH after it's mailed.

Yep

[couw]

good, more common knowledge to add to the sales pitch

[couw]

so, can we have a poll now on who left the best impression here?

ok, here's my impression of couw.

[PHILLYQ]

Leeway,

Maybe UA was a bit slow mailing the disc(s). But he gave you a refund and you're still complaining- he made good, move on. If the discs show up at your door, please be sure to come backe here and loudly announce that.

[7/4]

so, can we have a poll now on who left the best impression here?

ok, here's my impression of couw.

sheesh! don't get on the wrong side of couw!

Edited September 26, 2004 by 7/4

[Rooster_Ties]

Not sure I even want to read this entire thread, but for what it's worth -- I've bought and/or traded probably well more than a dozen CD's with Allan (undergroundagent), and haven't had any troubles. A few discs were a couple weeks in coming -- but hell, I've been three weeks or more sending stuff to him (so his on-time track-record is much better than mine!!!).

I'd definitely trade and/or buy more from him without any concerns.

[RainyDay]

Hmmm. I gave some cash to KCSM during their membership drive a couple weeks ago and I haven't received my James Brown CD yet. Damn thieves!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[couw]

can someone run all this by me again, I'm trying to cast a serious vote here.

[couw]

sheesh! don't get on the wrong side of couw!

hahah! and if you do get on the wrong side of the border of couw and things will take longer to reach him, you tell him right away, and if he asks you where his stuff is, you just answer him willya! No rude denial of couw! hahah!

[Leeway]

I believe it was Jane Austen who said, "what are we for but to make sport for neighbors." Well, amusing as that might be, I am not inclined to further the fun. You can put your popcorn away

I will say that I already laid out my reasons for my e-mail to UA. I gave some history why I didn't feel right with this transaction after nearly 4 weeks had passed. I believe I made it clear that I did not start the thread or make public comments about the situation. Allan had his say. He also made a refund. I accept that.

I am not "still complaining," except for the fact that a resolution could have been achieved without the public spectacle. Will I acknowledge receipt of the CDs if and when they come? Absolutely. But if I don't, should I proclaim that equally loudly?

I don't feel I owe anymore than that, since it was UA's decision to go public with it. If I had started the thread, then I could be faulted for "jumping the gun." As it is, I rest my case. Now I need to go listen to some jazz.

[Jim Alfredson]

So this is done, right?

[Guest Chaney]