Jim R Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 I really didn't mean "smooth" in the quiet storm kind of way. Only that he doesn't have the harsh tone of Ervin. Well, Lon may have been (at least partially) responding to my expressed sentiments. At least I hope so. I haven't gotten too much of a response yet on the subject... BTW, Watts does have a very pleasing sound. I think my "problem" with him is his occasional venture into the kind of phrases that I associate with smooth jazz. But as I say, maybe Watts was doing it BEFORE the smooth revolution occurred. I don't know... that's what I'm trying to figure out... Quote
jazzbo Posted October 6, 2004 Author Report Posted October 6, 2004 Yes Jim, I was referring to your Smooth query. . . . I just don't "feel" it as smooth in the phrasing. I feel it more as the sort of beautiful sound that Coltrane got on much of Crescent. Or the smoothness of the sound that Getz and others have polished from Pres. . . . And the phrasing, if indeed Smooth related (an if to me, but then I haven't heard a lot of Smooth, I make shure not to!) would I think be precursor. . . . Quote
Jim R Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 I hear you, Lon. We may end up disagreeing on this one (although I'm not all the way over the fence yet), but nothing wrong with that. One thing I should mention, if I didn't already, is that I really haven't heard a lot of Watts, and definitely not much "vintage" Watts. I do know (as I mentioned above) that he developed some ties in the smooth jazz world... to what extent I'm honestly not sure... and I wonder if what I'm hearing on the Haden CD ("Haunted Heart") was affected by his participation on smooth recordings and with smooth musicians in the studios. The other thing is, "Haunted Heart" of course has a "looking back" type of theme, and the juxtaposition of what I occasionally hear and associate with a "smooth" feel with the vintage theme... well, it's a little problematic for me. At any rate, not to force an argument or anything, but maybe I'll try to find some specific examples that someone else (who has HH) can check out and comment on. Could be it's just me... but I'm still curious. Quote
JSngry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 Anybody else remember Watts' long stint w/Doc Severinsen's Tonight Show band? I don't know how many nights I'd be fixing a sandwich and there wuould be Doc's goofy-ass clothes, Ed Shaunessey's goofy-ass sideburns, Ross Tompkin's goofy-ass face, Joel DiBartolo's electric-ass bass, Snooky Young's screaming-ass lead, and above it all, Ernie Watts' hundred-mile-an-hour-ass tenor solos. Not as good a fit as w/Buddy's band, but Buddy never had Snooky Young either. Oh well. Quote
Jim R Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 ...I'm not that familiar with his playing otherwise, although I remember him from the (Johnny Carson) Tonight Show band. Jim, ever heard Charlie Haden's "Haunted Heart"? I listened to it again this morning, and right off the bat on "Hello my lovely", I hear sounds that I associate with smooth jazz. The style of vibrato, especially in the upper register of the tenor (bringing a soprano to mind at times) and some of the phrasing (I don't know my saxophone terminology, but in the guitar world I'm talking about something akin to "hammer-ons"). I may not be able to explain it in technical terms... I don't listen to (nor anazlye) smooth jazz either, unless it happens by accident, but I guess I have heard enough to have developed a sense of what the general approach sounds like... Again, Watts plays some great stuff on this disc as well. It's only sporadic moments where I'm kind of scratching my head. Quote
JSngry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 It's an L.A. thing. I wouldn't understand. And don't. But that's cool. Quote
jazzbo Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Posted October 7, 2004 I haven't spun Haunted Heart in a while, but the playing fits in with the whole album flavor to me, and it didn't really suggest "Smooth" so much as it did a forties and fifties buttery Presidential tenor tone interpretation. . . . Quote
Jim R Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 Lon (or anybody else who may care to), if you get a chance, listen to the little space filler Watts uses during a pause in the melody at 5:53 / 5:54 elapsed time of the title track (track 3). That's about as clear an example as I can offer right now. To me it stands out (compared to the rest of his playing on this track) like a sore thumb, and I don't get it. Again, I don't mean to indict the guy, in fact he states this melody really beautifully overall, IMO. I just find it veird how he seems to lapse (to my ears) into a smooth element at various moments on this CD. The fact that he's an L.A. guy who has worked in a variety of settings (that's probably understating it) in the studios, including work with (at least one that I'm aware of) an acknowledged smooth jazzer... it's like "circumstantial evidence" to me. As I said above, I don't know his career history and how it all fits together in terms of his stylistic development. He blows me away at times on this disc, and then (I have to say) almost makes me gag. Almost. It's not really bad enough or frequent enough to ruin the disc for me. I just find it curious... Quote
jazzbo Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Posted October 7, 2004 Well, I'm not sure when I'll get into a position I can listen to this. . . . I'm working though some new things (including the "Elis and Tom" dvd/cd combo from Brazil) and the Ayler box is about to hit and derail my listening and I have to knuckle under and prepare myself and home for a visit from my parents in less than a week. . . . AND I'm not as PICKY as you are, so. . . B-) But if I get a chance I'll listen. . . and report back something. Quote
Jim R Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 I'm not as PICKY as you are, so. . . B-) I admit it. I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to shoot down his balloon. I'm really just trying to learn (by shooting my mouth off, in this case ). Quote
jazzbo Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Posted October 7, 2004 No I understand. . . . I just haven't really listened that hard to that one. It's sort of a "mood inducer" to me. I let it spin a web, and don't study the strands. A friend and I had a talk about smooth jazz a year ago or so ago. Over a few beers, something neither of us usually do (have a few beers any longer that is). And we sort of came to a concensus that electric Miles was a genesis of a lot of smooth jazz. Those were some dark Heinekens! Quote
JSngry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 CHARIOTS OF FIRE. GRP. 1982. Grammy nominated. Same tone. Different context and substance though. Quote
king ubu Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 So "Buddy & Soul" is the last of the PacJazz Riches with Watts aboard? I only have that one and "Keep the Customer Satisfied" so far, and tend to prefer the earlier. Funny I just got a nice Menza disc today... Quote
JSngry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 ...we sort of came to a concensus that electric Miles was a genesis of a lot of smooth jazz. So is Pharoah Sanders Impulse work. VERY much so, in fact. Quote
king ubu Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 A friend and I had a talk about smooth jazz a year ago or so ago. Over a few beers, something neither of us usually do (have a few beers any longer that is). And we sort of came to a concensus that electric Miles was a genesis of a lot of smooth jazz. Those were some dark Heinekens! you see, only needs some nice remarks about Miles and already couw drops by Quote
king ubu Posted October 7, 2004 Report Posted October 7, 2004 ...we sort of came to a concensus that electric Miles was a genesis of a lot of smooth jazz. So is Pharoah Sanders Impulse work. VERY much so, in fact. And Gato? He crossed the border himself, didn't he? (I only have some of his Flying Dutchman so far) ubu Quote
BFrank Posted October 8, 2004 Report Posted October 8, 2004 (edited) Listening to "Planet Love" right now. Ernie certainly throws off some RIPPING licks on this album. After that I put on Don Menza's "First Flight" and realized how similar their styles are. Edited October 8, 2004 by BFrank Quote
DMP Posted October 8, 2004 Report Posted October 8, 2004 I've heard Watts live a couple of times - don't think his recorded output had prepared me for how strong a player he is!! Eye-opening. (And "Planet Love" should be a reissue candidate.) Quote
Jim R Posted October 9, 2004 Report Posted October 9, 2004 ...we sort of came to a concensus that electric Miles was a genesis of a lot of smooth jazz. So is Pharoah Sanders Impulse work. VERY much so, in fact. This may apply mostly to saxophone players, but what about Gene Ammons? Every time I spin the later recordings (circa '70) from the "Gentle Jug" series, I hear little snippets of phrasing that almost lead in that direction... Quote
mikeweil Posted October 9, 2004 Report Posted October 9, 2004 I really think all tenor guys have listened to Gene Ammons - I can hear a little bit of him in everybody, but he seems to be taken for granted. He was a very personal voice - but one that you will overhear after a while because it's so natural. Quote
Jim R Posted October 9, 2004 Report Posted October 9, 2004 I really think all tenor guys have listened to Gene Ammons... One would think/hope so, but actually my point (which I'm not asserting, BTW, but just wondering about) is that elements of his playing may have eventually trickled down into the stylings of the smooth guys (where the soprano is favored, afaik). Quote
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