The Prince

[Bright Moments]

don't get me wrong, i love this place, but recent events got me thinking about that classic, "The Prince."

if Machiavelli were around today he would probably write that with respect to forums such as ours idea that theological and moral imperatives have no place there.

"It must be understood," Machiavelli avers, "that a prince ... cannot observe all of those virtues for which men are reputed good, because it is often necessary to act against mercy, against faith, against humanity, against frankness, against religion, in order to preserve the state."

[Dr. Rat]

A question:

What does liking this place have to do with the Machiavelli coming to mind (or not)?

No, two questions, what brought our Florentine friend to mind, exactly?

--eric

[jazzypaul]

I totally get it. Let's face it, the politics forum, and all of the religious discussions have most certainly made enemies here. They never make friends. And where there are enemies, there are skirmishes, and those skirmishes turn into battles, and, left unchecked, into full blown wars. No one wants that, and I for one, as a religious guy, would rather see religious discussions banned here.

That's one thing that AAJ got right from the git-go.

[Dr. Rat]

I totally get it. Let's face it, the politics forum, and all of the religious discussions have most certainly made enemies here. They never make friends. And where there are enemies, there are skirmishes, and those skirmishes turn into battles, and, left unchecked, into full blown wars. No one wants that, and I for one, as a religious guy, would rather see religious discussions banned here.

That's one thing that AAJ got right from the git-go.

Really? Enemies?

I've probably got pretty sharp elbows, but I'd hope that there are no lasting hard feelings stemming from spirited discussion.

I might get mad--I tend to get more mad at folks on my side of the political fence--but that's certainly not an enemy thing.

This true of others? Or am I insensitive?

I think we've certainly played the religion deal out, much as we played out (to make a connection to a somewhat bruising thread I was involved with) the "Late Coltrane" deal (which also had some pretty serious religious overtones). I don't hate anyone from that thread--in fact I have a lasting admiration for some of the folks I sparred with there. And I don't bother to refight that battle every time someone posts something praising late Coltrane, either. We've pretty much said what has to be said (and a whole lot more) I respect their viewpoints, and I hope they can mine and that's that.

And I still don't see the Machiavelli connection.

--eric

[Big Al]

I'm just glad I've avoided the latest religious thread like the plague!

[catesta]

I'm just glad I've avoided the latest religious thread like the plague!

No worries, we talked plenty about you, Al.

[Big Al]

I'm just glad I've avoided the latest religious thread like the plague!

No worries, we talked plenty about you, Al.

I should hope so! B-)

[jazzbo]

I'm with Eric. I mean I know I don't ever want to have a beer with Weizy or Berigan, but enemies? Nah!

I think this is a true, or SOMETIMES was or is a true, place of conversation and exchanges of ideas. Sometimes pretty, sometimes not.

[jazzypaul]

I'm with Eric. I mean I know I don't ever want to have a beer with Weizy or Berigan, but enemies? Nah!

I think this is a true, or SOMETIMES was or is a true, place of conversation and exchanges of ideas. Sometimes pretty, sometimes not.

And why is that Lon? It certainly isn't because of the musical discussions, I am sure. But, rather, because of divisive commentary about politics and religion.

For me, when it comes to politics, I have an incredibly thick skin. I'm a third party guy, I get jabs from every which direction. Fair enough.

But when it comes to the religious stuff, I think people have an even bigger prediliction towards pushing buttons, and I don't like it. There are some who feel the need to act in a very condescending manner, and those who absolutely feel the need to spit in the face of those who believe. But, seemingly, it only comes to the fore when religion is brought up. So, again, I agree with Evan and Machiavelli, preserve the forum and axe the religion. But that's me.

This is made doubly hard for me as I can't very well just avoid the religion discussions and sit idly by while someone posts a picture of my religious icon in a jar of urine with the line "where's your saviour now?" I'd much rather it be a situation where it doesn't or can't come up at all. I'd shut up, they'd shut up, and the world would be a better place. At least at Organissimo, anyway. And, you know, I consider some of these people to be pretty cool. I'd rather not change my opinion of them. I'd much rather think that I have a possible drinking buddy in every port.

I hope this doesn't offend.

[Dr. Rat]

I'm with Eric.  I mean I know I don't ever want to have a beer with Weizy or Berigan, but enemies?  Nah!

I think this is a true, or SOMETIMES was or is a true, place of conversation and exchanges of ideas.  Sometimes pretty, sometimes not.

I can't say about berigan, but I'd have a beer with weizy! I bet he's got a line on some nice places to drink, and as long as he's buying . . .

--eric

edit: change my version of winky emoticon to graphic

Edited September 23, 2004 by Dr. Rat

[catesta]

and as long as he's buying . . . ;-)

--eric

That could be a problem.

[jazzbo]

NO, I definitely don't want to have a beer with Weizy. Yes, in a way JP it is about the nonmusic discussion. And it's not because of the politics per se, but because of the personality I see behind it, the jabs at people and the mockery. It's fine and dandy, more power to his right to do so, but I don't want to fraternize.

But I still prefer having a place for complete conversation, not that whitewashed hall that is AAJ, etc.

I'm pretty thick skinned and respectful about religion. I've lived a good share of my life within an organized belief system, and a good share outside of one. I'm a lot happier without one and can't swallow the black and whiteness of being in one. But I did live on the other side, and know how to be a good neighbor with a fence just the right height.

[Dr. Rat]

NO, I definitely don't want to have a beer with Weizy. Yes, in a way JP it is about the nonmusic discussion. And it's not because of the politics per se, but because of the personality I see behind it, the jabs at people and the mockery. It's fine and dandy, more power to his right to do so, but I don't want to fraternize.

Does that mean you're going to buy me a beer?

--eric

[Dr. Rat]

I was going to say in another thread that one of the joys of knowing the lord is that he's always good for a fiver and he'll stand you a round at your local.

Remember the wedding of Caana! or was that at Caana?

--eric

Edited September 23, 2004 by Dr. Rat

[jazzbo]

Eric, I'll buy you a beer sometime!

[Dr. Rat]

Just about to head out and have one on my own dime . . . but I'm hoping Bright Moments comes round to clarify before tomorrow morning.

I love Nicolo.

--eric

[jazzbo]

I'm not much of a drinker, and I'm easy to please these days. . . a Heineken Dark suits me fine.

[AfricaBrass]

Sometimes the board has reminded me more of "The Lord of the Flies" -

The Board of the Flies

It's a small little island we live on, but I do think there has been (from the beginning) a sense of comradery among the board folk (remember MusicBoy).

As for religion, I always figured that if you bring up what you believe, there's going to be someone who will disagree and possibly mock it.

Who cares if they do? If you've got a great sense of peace from your faith, then good for you. Just be happy that you're happy. I'll tell you, I was a lot happier when I had faith, life was a LOT easer for me.

it's not up to you to protect your God, etc... from mockers. He/She/It can take care of themselves.

I know that nobody asked for my opinion, so I'll just shut up.

[connoisseur series500]

Let's face it, the politics forum, and all of the religious discussions have most certainly made enemies here. They never make friends.

I'm not sure about this either.

I've made friends with political opposites on this board, such as Johnny, Christiern, Big Wheel, Mule, etc.

I'd invite Johnny over for a beer anytime, except he'd probably suck them all down then go vote for the wrong guy...

[skeith]

I am somewhat apprehensive about having posted on the Politics forum. To say the least, I don't exactly feel like my opinions are shared by many - although I'll bet many have the wrong idea about where I stand on a lot of issues.

I wonder if I am making enemies which I certainly don't want to do. Sometimes I surprise myself with the comments I make and I am disappointed with myself when I get a bit on the harsh side.

And I notice that I haven't been able to sell anything on the Offering and Looking For forum since I started posting in Politics - well maybe that's the proof.

[connoisseur series500]

And I notice that I haven't been able to sell anything on the Offering and Looking For forum since I started posting in Politics - well maybe that's the proof.

Offering/Looking for section is dead without Undergroundagent.

Grey helps but his stuff is gone in five minutes...

[chris olivarez]

Normally when I see a thread that I don't like I avoid it like the proverbial plague. If I see a post that pisses me off I try to chill first before I offer a response and a lot of times I don't respond because frankly it just isn't worth it. I have to be in the right mood or maybe I should say the wrong mood before I get into an argument with some one. As it is life is far too short and difficult to go creating enemies. Sometimes it happens and not everyone in this life is going to like you but why add to your burden by adding to your enemies list for no real good reason. Some people like to argue but I'm not one of them.

[Bright Moments]

Just about to head out and have one on my own dime . . . but I'm hoping Bright Moments comes round to clarify before tomorrow morning.

I love Nicolo.

--eric

my pedantic attempt at an erudite response to the cancellation of the babe thread.

[Brad]

I guess I missed it but why cancel the babe thread. Yeah, it'd gotten a little smutty but that's life; it has its blemishes and is not clean. If you're going to get rid of that, also get rid of the politics forum. Bummer.

[Jazzmoose]

And I notice that I haven't been able to sell anything on the Offering and Looking For forum since I started posting in Politics - well maybe that's the proof.

The one thing I cannot imagine on this board is anyone passing up a CD or LP they want because of any disagreement on any thread. Heck, I've even dealt with Conn, and you know what an asshole he is!