Joe Henderson at the Lighthouse

[connoisseur series500]

I got this from the bastards recently, and...WOW! Gave it only one spin, but it was enough to label this one as top notch.

Woody is in top form and I love Cables' electric piano. Joe is in great form, but Woody is even better.

Highly recommended...

[dsgtrane]

Agreed.

Love Woody on this. One of my favorite of his sideman gigs. Other than the fact that these are mostly JH compositions, Woody could have easily gotten equal billing.

Not a big fan of e-piano myself but for the most part it didn't bother me. However, on a few occasions I did find myself imagining an acoustic one in its place.

[MartyJazz]

Are there any tracks on it that were not issued on the Joe Henderson Milestone box set? I ask because indeed there are extra tracks that were issued many years ago on a bootleg LP that I own. It would be nice to have all the material on CD.

Edited September 22, 2004 by MartyJazz

[dsgtrane]

Are there any tracks on it that were not issued on the Joe Henderson Milestone box set?  I ask because indeed there are extra tracks that were issued many years ago on a bootleg LP that I own.  It would be nice to have all the material on CD.

It's all on the box set. In fact, there's still one track from this session ("Gazelle") that's not on the CD due to time constraints. It appears on "In Pursuit Of Blackness" in addition to the box.

PS-Marty: We met through a discussion of the box set. Recall?

Edited September 22, 2004 by dsgtrane

[Rooster_Ties]

...there are extra tracks that were issued many years ago on a bootleg LP that I own.

Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw -- Jazz Patterns

?; September, 1970?

Joe Henderson - ts; WS - tp; George Cables - el p; Ron McClure - b, el b; Lenny White - dr.

1.  Invitation  (Kaper/Webster) 

2.  Punjab  (Henderson)  see below 

3.  Power to the People  (Henderson)  see below 

The two Joe Henderson originals are labelled with unusual titles of unknown origin: the track "Punjab" is labelled "Lofty", and the track "Power to the People" is labelled "What's Mine Is Yours".

Don't know if this is from The Lighthouse or not (far as I know, nobody knows for sure), but supposedly Tony Waters (congas) is on the Lighthouse date, but Waters isn't on the "Jazz Patterns" bootleg (or at least he can't be heard on the bootleg).

Neither "Punjab" nor "Power To The People" are on the Joe Henderson box (or on this new Lighthouse release), and "Power To The People' in particular really lets everyone stretch out. It covers an entire side of the bootleg LP, and probably goes on for 20 minutes. Also, "Power To The People" is one of my very favorite Milestone-era Joe tunes.

Anybody know of any CD-issue of "Jazz Patterns"?? Not looking (or expecting) so much a legit release of this material, but something like a European gray-market issue (Jazz-door, Jazz-up, or one of those labels)?? Sidebar: weren't most of those labels from Italy??

Edited September 22, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

By the way, although I do like the Henderson/Shaw Lighthouse material, am I the only one who finds this band to be a bit on the ragged side??

Don't get me wrong, they're good, even "damn good" here and there. But personally I find the Lighthouse recordings to be nowhere near as "GREAT!!! " as I would normally expect from Joe and Woody.

In other words, as they are I give these recordings a strong B+ as a letter-grade --- when what I would really like for them to be, is straight A/A+ material. Who's with me on this??

[dsgtrane]

By the way, although I do like the Henderson/Shaw Lighthouse material, am I the only one who finds this band to be a bit on the ragged side??

Don't get me wrong, they're good, even "damn good" here and there. But personally I find the Lighthouse recordings to be nowhere near as "GREAT!!! " as I would normally expect from Joe and Woody.

In other words, as they are I give these recordings a strong B+ as a letter-grade --- when what I would really like for them to be, is straight A/A+ material. Who's with me on this??

I don't know. I think Woody's playing is top-notch. Might agree on Henderson however I've always preferred JH as a sideman anyway.

[Jim Dye]

I think the raggedness is part of what makes this session so special. They are very loose, but manage to keep it together and still tear it up. Some songs just FLY. I really the electric piano on this one. Lenny White kicks some major ass too.

Is the remastering any different than the box set?

Edited September 22, 2004 by Jim Dye

[HWright]

I agree that the overall effect is a bit ragged. The sound is not at all dynamic, in fact it's a bit flat at times. Perhaps a result of the limitation of the masters or maybe that was just the way the group sounded.

I would also add that I am not very impressed by George Cables' electric piano playing on these sessions, the recordings drag when he solos especially. I should add though that in general I find that the electric piano is a hard instrument to make interesting in a jazz context. I would say this is doublely so in a live recording context. Think of how problematic Miles' live recordings from 1969-1970 are in this respect. The only one that really works (for me at any rate) is "Live/Evil," and Keith Jarret has a rather limited role on those sessions (behind the horns and John McLaughlin) compared to what Chick and Chick and Keith did on the other dates.

[pryan]

By the way, although I do like the Henderson/Shaw Lighthouse material, am I the only one who finds this band to be a bit on the ragged side??

Don't get me wrong, they're good, even "damn good" here and there. But personally I find the Lighthouse recordings to be nowhere near as "GREAT!!! " as I would normally expect from Joe and Woody.

In other words, as they are I give these recordings a strong B+ as a letter-grade --- when what I would really like for them to be, is straight A/A+ material. Who's with me on this??

Haven't heard the disc yet, but I'm inclined to after reading the positive comments in this thread. I could care less if it's "A" material or "B+" quality. I think maybe the reason (or one of the reasons) that causes the "raggedness" is the fact that it is a live recording. Was Woody in Henderson's group at this time or was he just sitting in; seems to me that if it is the latter then that could explain some of the "raggedness".

[Guy Berger]

I would also add that I am not very impressed by George Cables' electric piano playing on these sessions, the recordings drag when he solos especially. I should add though that in general I find that the electric piano is a hard instrument to make interesting in a jazz context. I would say this is doublely so in a live recording context. Think of how problematic Miles' live recordings from 1969-1970 are in this respect. The only one that really works (for me at any rate) is "Live/Evil," and Keith Jarret has a rather limited role on those sessions (behind the horns and John McLaughlin) compared to what Chick and Chick and Keith did on the other dates.

I completely disagree about the bolded statement above. Listen to any of the live dates from 1969! Chick is laying down some amazing, unbelievable stuff on the Fender Rhodes. His solos are fabulous and the instrument gives a fascinating, unique slant to the collectively improvised sections on "It's About That Time" and other tunes. He's not just treating it as "an acoustic piano with a different sound". (Which I think is the problem with a lot of electric piano playing in jazz. It's a different instrument!)

The spring 1970 stuff is more mixed -- it's too heavy on electronic effects at times, obscuring the amazing stuff that Chick is doing on the instrument. But for every crazy, over-the-top keyboard freakout, there's ten times as much stuff that blows my mind every time I hear it. Chick's solo on the April 9 "Spanish Key" stands out in my mind. So does his playing with/against Wayne on the March 7 "Directions" (second set).

I agree that once Keith joined the band, the band frequently suffered from keyboard-freakout overload. Supposedly Keith and Chick couldn't hear each other. Once the band returned to the one-keyboardist format things improved.

Guy

[Leeway]

Release date 9/14/04- Milestone.

[JSngry]

FWIW, Woody openly admitted during his lifetime that his sojurn to the West Coast was marked by serious addiction problems. Joe, well... Make of that what you will as it pertains to any "raggedness" on this album.

Love the Rhodes myself. Texture, flavor, a multi-octave kalimba almost, what's NOT to love when it's played well in the right context?

[Guy Berger]

FWIW, Woody openly admitted during his lifetime that his sojurn to the West Coast was marked by serious addiction problems. Joe, well... Make of that what you will as it pertains to any "raggedness" on this album.

Love the Rhodes myself. Texture, flavor, a multi-octave kalimba almost, what's NOT to love when it's played well in the right context?

By the way, as relating to Joe, I think the JH in Japan album (which I really like) is a great example of how NOT to use the FR in jazz. I look forward to hearing this new one.

Guy

Edited September 23, 2004 by Guy Berger

[MartyJazz]

...there are extra tracks that were issued many years ago on a bootleg LP that I own.

Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw -- Jazz Patterns

?; September, 1970?

Joe Henderson - ts; WS - tp; George Cables - el p; Ron McClure - b, el b; Lenny White - dr.

1.  Invitation  (Kaper/Webster) 

2.  Punjab  (Henderson)  see below 

3.  Power to the People  (Henderson)  see below 

The two Joe Henderson originals are labelled with unusual titles of unknown origin: the track "Punjab" is labelled "Lofty", and the track "Power to the People" is labelled "What's Mine Is Yours".

Don't know if this is from The Lighthouse or not (far as I know, nobody knows for sure), but supposedly Tony Waters (congas) is on the Lighthouse date, but Waters isn't on the "Jazz Patterns" bootleg (or at least he can't be heard on the bootleg).

Neither "Punjab" nor "Power To The People" are on the Joe Henderson box (or on this new Lighthouse release), and "Power To The People' in particular really lets everyone stretch out. It covers an entire side of the bootleg LP, and probably goes on for 20 minutes. Also, "Power To The People" is one of my very favorite Milestone-era Joe tunes.

Anybody know of any CD-issue of "Jazz Patterns"?? Not looking (or expecting) so much a legit release of this material, but something like a European gray-market issue (Jazz-door, Jazz-up, or one of those labels)?? Sidebar: weren't most of those labels from Italy??

JAZZ PATTERNS is indeed the bootleg LP that I was referring to. I had always believed that it had been recorded at the Lighthouse around the same time as the legit Milestone material. As I indicated in my previous post, I am not aware of JAZZ PATTERNS having ever been issued on any CD, bootleg or not.

[skeith]

JIm Dye

that's my question too, how's the remastering compared to the box set?

[skeith]

I picked up a copy of this yesterday. On an initial listening, it may be slightly better sonically than the box set, but there's not a huge difference.

[Templejazz]

I need to get this album, like, YESTERDAY!!

[sal]

After hearing this yesterday, I'm surprised to read some of the negative perceptions here. It sounds top notch to me! The electric piano is really cool. It all seems to gel together.

Edited October 1, 2004 by sal

[Late]

On 9/23/2004 at 9:30 PM, MartyJazz said:

JAZZ PATTERNS is indeed the bootleg LP that I was referring to. I had always believed that it had been recorded at the Lighthouse around the same time as the legit Milestone material. As I indicated in my previous post, I am not aware of JAZZ PATTERNS having ever been issued on any CD, bootleg or not.

Do we know for sure that this album is a bootleg? The session came out, circa 1983, on Everest. At any rate, it's available these days as a download. (Over-priced for three tunes, in my opinion.) According to discussion here, the three tunes were indeed recorded at The Lighthouse.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Late

[JSngry]

By the time this one came out Everest was more than happy to put out a bootleg of tow. Or three...

[Late]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

By the time this one came out, Everest was more than happy to put out a bootleg or two. Or three ...

Well, at least the music's out there. Another version of "Power To The People"!

[JSngry]

Oh, i bought the record first time I saw it. It was a no-brainier!

Like the Lee Morgan Lighthouse(or not) bootlegs, I think the official stuff is a notch better than the bootleg stuff. But it's not a quantum difference by any means, and I'd not be without it.

[Late]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

But it's not a quantum difference by any means, and I'd not be without it.

Dig.

[david weiss]

19 hours ago, Late said:

Do we know for sure that this album is a bootleg? The session came out, circa 1983, on Everest. At any rate, it's available these days as a download. (Over-priced for three tunes, in my opinion.) According to discussion here, the three tunes were indeed recorded at The Lighthouse.

It's a bootleg and it's actually from the Both/And (same tour though). I vetted these tapes a while back. There is more then just these three tracks. It's decently recorded and it's all killing....