Wayne Shorter

[Guy Berger]

I'm starting this thread to discuss Wayne as a saxophone player (rather than as a composer).

What tracks feature your favorite playing by the man?

Mine:

solo

"Time of the Barracudas" (from Et Cetera)

w/Art Blakey

"Arabia" (from Mosaic)

title track of Free for All

w/Miles Davis

"Iris" (ESP)

"So What" (from Plugged Nickel, 12/23/65)

"Gingerbread Boy" (Miles Smiles)

"Masqualero" (Sorcerer)

"Mademoiselle Mabry" (Filles de Kilimanjaro)

"In a Silent Way" (studio version)

"Directions" (second set, 3/7/70)

w/Weather Report

opening of "Vertical Invader" (from Live in Tokyo)

"Elegant People" (Black Market)

w/others

"Message from the Nile" (Extensions -- probably my favorite Wayne-on-soprano)

Edited September 12, 2004 by Guy Berger

[sal]

For me, it doesn't get much better than the Plugged Nickel sets. His playing on there is unbelievable.

Something about his playing on "In A Silent Way" really gets me. Very powerful.

To venture outside of Miles' music, he also plays fantastic on McCoy Tyner's "Extentions"

[JSngry]

"Elegant People" - so much control, so much passion, so much of everything.

"Tout De Suite" - one melody examined from seemingly infinite perspectives.

"Yesterdays" from the final Plugged Nickel set/disc - no words for that one! But geez.....

"Moon Of Manakoora" on Wayning Moments. HawHawHawHaw!

More to come - put me down in the "if Wayne plays it, I want to hear it" camp, no matter what or where or when it is. The man's virtuosity is so evolved that he can play less than anybody and make it mean more than most. And when he chooses to play LOTS, well, so much the better.

[Free For All]

solo

"Time of the Barracudas" (from Et Cetera)

Another nice version of this one is on the Individualism of Gil Evans recording.

[.:.impossible]

I was fortunate to hear him play about a month ago. Let me say it was one hell of an experience. I like what Jim says about his viruosity. Wayne's group played after Ornette's, another extremely advanced player, and sounded light years away from everyone else that came before.

I am still in awe. He was ferocious.

[JSngry]

solo

"Time of the Barracudas" (from Et Cetera)

Another nice version of this one is on the Individualism of Gil Evans recording.

Also on that one is another moment of supreme Waynosity - "The Barbara Song".

[RainyDay]

I'm not a collector so unfortunately, I never have much to add to this type of discussion. But having seen him live a few times over the last couple years, the best I've seen him play during this time was in the Fall of 2002 when he followed a set by Branford Marsalis. Shorter was on fire that night and played with more heart and passion than I'd seen recently. Maybe it was because he followed that Maralis kid, but he was cooking that night.

[A Lark Ascending]

There's so much wonderful Shorter.

But this year I've been especially haunted by 'El Gaucho' off 'Adam's Apple'. The structure of that piece brings out some marvellous playing.

[Free For All]

solo

"Time of the Barracudas" (from Et Cetera)

Another nice version of this one is on the Individualism of Gil Evans recording.

Also on that one is another moment of supreme Waynosity - "The Barbara Song".

Yes, it's Shorterlicious!

[JSngry]

About Wayne's virtuosity - I don't think that there's ever been an "inside" player who has exhibited such control over tonguing as has Wayne. Combined with his equally advanced control over tonal manipulation through throat and embouchure contol, it's allowed him to create a realm of expression that is a lot more "vocal" in quality than most players of his generation - not in the "maoning" quality that somebody like Johnny Griffin so dazzingly gets, but a very "speechlike" quality.

It's what makes those sparse but significant solos in his best Weather Report work stand out to me. If you were to just look at the notes on paper, and play them "as is", without a clue as to the inflections and colors tht Wayne was putting on them, you'd perhaps wonder what all the fuss was about. but listening to HOW he plays them is a whole nother thing. It's "operatic" in a way. The intent being not to "play a solo" as much as it is to "sing" a melody, a melody that is fully deliniated in every expressive aspect. It's an approach that only a true virtuoso could pull off, because it requires absolute confidence and control, both musical and personal.

That's not to say that it always worked, but it did more often than not afaic, and it really opened up a door for a new esthetic in improvised music. Or, more likely, it provided a more "modern" door for the timeless esthetic of "melody over all" to function in. No longer was virtuosity in the function of finding new forms or techniques or whatever. Virtusity was now in the service of melody, PURE melody, and the more distilled (read:concentrated) the melody could be made, the more intense was the virtuosity needed to deliver it in that form. The art of the novel has been condensed into the art of the significant utterance.

Wayne had already shown us one "new way" in his work with Blakey and Miles. He's since shown us another "new way", and if that way has been much less imitated (probably because it's TOO DAMN DIFFICULT in so, SO many ways), it nevertheless must be dealt with (by players and listeners alike), because once a door like this has been opened (and never closed by the one who opened it), well, attention must be paid.

[Chuck Nessa]

Jim, your thoughts will take a few more minutes to digest, but THANKS for the mental workout.

I just want to remind all of the Shorter solos on "Roots and Herbs" (all Shorter comps). The French concerts from the same time too. Wayne at the top of one of his games.

[Big Al]

Agree with everything said before. To echo what Jim said, you can hear a Shorter solo and know it's him from his sound.

There's certainly no shortage of Shorter greatness; my favorite is Speak No Evil. This album is justifiably popular, deserving of all the hype that gets poured on it. Great hummable (or whistle-able melodies), incredible solos, and a killer rhythm section. "Dance Cadaverous" moves me like few others do; the only one that comes close is "Little One" and "Dolphin Dance" from Maiden Voyage. But THE highlight is that first note breathed on "Infant Eyes." How the hell does he DO that?!?!? Ethereal doesn't begin to describe it.

[tonym]

But THE highlight is that first note breathed on "Infant Eyes." How the hell does he DO that?!?!? Ethereal doesn't begin to describe it.

An octave jump up from bottom D to middle doesn't seem like the hardest thing in the world does it? But, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[catesta]

A whole lot of Wayne Shorter to love.

How about his solo on Lee Morgan's tune "The Gigolo"? Pure Magic!

It gets me today just like it did the first time I heard it.

[jazzbo]

Lots of magic in the VeeJay years from Wayne, I get most of my Wayne fixes from those sessions these days, and the Miles sessions. . . especially some of the 1966 and 1967 live dates.

[couw]

Jim, your thoughts will take a few more minutes to digest, but THANKS for the mental workout.

I still don't understand it.

[JSngry]

What part?

[catesta]

Jim, your thoughts will take a few more minutes to digest, but THANKS for the mental workout.

I still don't understand it.

What a surprise.

[mikeweil]

All of Adam's Apple - my Wayne Shorter desert island disk.

But there is a lot of great soloing, of course.

On soprano, the duet with Zawinul on oneWeather Report LP, and some of Native Dancer.

[couw]

What part?

lots of parts.

It's all a bit opaque to me in its metaphores and comparisons. From what I understand, you are saying that Wayne developed a superb technique that allowed him to express himself in a "speechlike" way. That seems to me to be more suited to describe phrasing than tone (like Rollins stu-stu-stutt-stuttering along). From how you continue, I get the impression it's about his tone though, so I'm lost. What do you mean with the "vocal" quality?

The part of Wayne's solos looking like easy-po-peasy on paper, but his playing these lines in such a unique way; isn't this what it is all about, a unique and personal tone? Don't all the major players have this? Maybe not with the "simplicity factor," but then there's always Prez and even Miles.

So how would Wayne's approach open the door for a new esthetic? Didn't he just reinvent some old wheel? If I understand your concept of "melody over all" correctly: it is more about tone and little inflections in playing straight, even written out parts, than about improvising lines and phrases. That would call latter day (solo) Art Pepper to my mind.

Hey, I DID try!

Maybe you can let catesta explain it.

Edited September 13, 2004 by couw

[catesta]

Maybe you can let catesta explain it. 

Can do...

This will explain everything.

[JSngry]

Thought I was pretty clear. Guess not. Sorry.

Tone and phrasing needn't be (SHOULDN'T be, ideally) separate components of a player's voice. In other words, in Wayne's case, you can't separte what is being played from how it's being played. Well, you can, but that misses the point entirely, I think. A "voice" is just that - a sound. You use that voice to say what you have to say, and you alter it to fit whatever it si that you're saying.

Is Wayne the first to do this? no, not by a long shot. but he's the first one to do it the way he did it, which is to find a way to simultaneously be on top of and inside the ensemble (see the famous "We always solo, we never solo" credo of WR).

What Wayne did was to cast aside the notion of "soloist", a voice on top of a supporting cast, and also the notion of "group improvisation" as a mechanism for collective soloing in a "free" context. He found a way to play in a structured environment as a specific part of a improvisational collective. Call it "picking your spots" if you like.

Again, others have done somewaht the same thing (Jimmy Giuffre's various groups come to mind), but nobody has perfected the art of the distilled statement like Wayne has. One phrase, ONE PHRASE of his can constitute a complete statement. Of course, he never really limits himself to just one phrase in the course of a perfomance, but that's the esthetic at work - making each statement concise, complete, and compact before moving on to the next one, whenever that may be (and the need for that "whenever" to NOT occur in a preplanned or cyclical, much less immediate, location is also a part of the "new esthetic"). It's the art of playing ONLY what is needed, and playing it ONLY when it's absolutely necessary.

Playing and thinking like this requires ultra-fast reflexes and the highest level of virtuosity. Without those two things, you'd just get random blips and sputters that really don't amount to anything other than random blips and splutters. You never get that with Wayne - you always get a distinct melodic idea, fully formed, and fully shaded/nuanced. Even if it's only two or three notes surrounded on either side by long silences, those two or three notes HAD to be there, and they had to be played exactly like that at that time. Next time might be totally different.

Again, Wayne's not the only player to explore these ideas, but he's taken them to his own place, and in doing so has come up with a whole new concept of functioning within a improvising group (as well as a whole new concept of how those groups should function, but this thread is about Wayne Shorter the saxophonist).

Maybe it's less apparent to a lay listener than it is to a player. Not trying to play the "musician card" here, really, but maybe it is. As somebody who plays a lot of improvisational music (in a lot of different "styles"), I've had my imagination totally captivated by the way that Wayne has gone about defining his "role" over the last 30-35 years or so. Frankly, afaic, "soloing" in the traditional sense is a dead-end more often than not. The vocabulary's been exhausted, and if the meaning behind that vocabulary still remains relevant, the traditional sytax of it hasn't, at least as far as making "now" (as opposed to "re-creative" music) goes. This is hardly news - the AACM picked up on that a LONG time ago. The whole soloing thing is essential schooling (at least for now), and it's still a blast to both do and to hear, but let's face it - it's a test where for all but a very, VERY select few, all the answers have been already published.

The challenge now, at least for me, is how to function IN a group, not on top of it. Again, the AACM led the way (one of the ways, anyway), and showed many possibilities. But what Wayne has done is adopt/adapt this "new mind" to the older vernacular, to still function within the "song structure" (albeit an often considerably stretched one). This began with ODYSSEY OF ISKA (maybe even on SUPER NOVA), and continued on through Weather Report (although that group became something totally different than what it originated as, Wayne retained his concept throughout, all things considered), and continues today. HIGH LIFE, FOOTPRINTS LIVE, and ALEGRIA are very much GROUP musics, musics that are somewhat like a mobile - everything (composition, players, solos, parts, EVERYTHING) seemingly revolves around a central axis independently, but closer examination reveals that the independence is anything but - everything is connected at the most basic level. Again, this concept is nothing new, but the idiom(s) that Wayne's applied it to is, as is the high degree of virtuosity (instrumentally, compositionally, personally, every way) that he brings in doing it. I know not everybody hears it that way (I'm waiting for Larry Kart to jump in and tell me I'm full of shit, only very, VERY eloquently ), but that's the way I've been hearing it from the git-go, and nothing has changed my mind yet.

Hope that's clearer, but I doubt it is. This is reaching the point of getting so personal that I don't have the ability to articulate it clearly, because if I could really explain it, I'd have it under control myself, and it would be time to move on.

I don't, and it's not!

Edited September 13, 2004 by JSngry

[couw]

Thanks, this helps. Some more bickering, because, to be honest, I don't hear all of the superlatives you are using to describe Wayne's style. (Hey, sue me! )...

For one, how does all this fit with cool and chamber jazz. There can be a lot of collective/individual, supporting/supported, improvisation/reading parts stuff found there too. You say Wayne took a "whole new concept of functioning within a improvising group," that sounds as if even I could hear that...

And what about the groups coming from Europe, with their basis in folk and Banda and classical? Also collective improvisation within strict, ordered limits. How does it all compare?

It seems you might as well be hearing collective improvisation without the extrovert bite of free that usually goes with that and then labeling that lack "structured environment." Indeed a little like the introverted freedom of Guiffre, but less ragged. Maybe this "smoothness" is what you mean with Wayne's knack for playing fully formed melodic lines from the hip.

Just asking for some life lines attached to my private concrete rocks, where I think I know what's up, before I can really appreciate what you are trying to say.

[BruceH]

I just can't stop listening to the VeeJay stuff. My favorite Shorter, for some reason.

[Larry Kart]

That's right, Jim -- you're full of shit. Oops, forgot I was supposed to be eloquent. Actually, I haven't listened to enough of the Weather Report-and-later Wayne that you've cited to speak with any confidence about your vision of Wayne and the "new esthetic" (haven't listened to enough of etc. because whenever I've tried I've gotten bored, which of course may be be MY problem, but lack of curiosity and/for fondness for that with which I'm already familiar is not, or so I believe, one of my traits. In fact, I'd say that, based on what I have heard of the Wayne I think you're talking about, either Wayne's "new aesthetic" is so subtly "inside" that it escapes my (in this zone only I hope) too coarse-grained ear, or (this is, provisionally, what I really think) the subtlety is there but is more or less decorative, however elegant it can be at times (as on much of "Alegria" IMO) -- that it involves a seemingly wholehearted, un-ironic embrace of some rather sweet-toothy stuff: "Serenata," "Bachianas Brasilierias No. 5," "She Moves Through the Fair," etc. Again, the elegance and subtlety of the presentation is more attractive (at least to me) than I thought it would be at first, but on the one hand I hate that "vocabulary's been exhausted" stuff in general (and "in general" is the only way that's typically done and especially when it amounts to (as it so often does, though I don't doubt the sincerity of your "I've been hearing it from the git-go" response to Wayne and the "new esthetic") a reason why we should settle for much lot less than we used to as a matter of course and then agree to call this something "new" to boot. And where does the AACM come into this? Yes, I know about Roscoe, for one, pretty much blowing apart the notion that you could or should take a (certainly not his) solo statement as a direct lyric stand-in for the man himself, but it seems to me that there's such a big difference between the way any notable AACM figure actually sounds (and I think operates) and the way the Wayne you're talking about sounds and operates that the connection seems to me like one that may be subtle to the point of inaudibility.