Unusual Blue Note LP

[Peter A]

Hmm, not to be argumentative (and I certainly can not disprove your opening sentence), but I'm just curious.  What is your source of information for making that opening statement?  Your list of mismatched labels doesn't include any Lexington/Div. of Liberty pairing, so I don't know if you've actually seen this, or just heard about it occuring.

Jim,

I probably did not make myself clear enough - I should have distinguished two situations:

A) the use of different (mismatched) labels, and

B) the use of old labels on "Liberty era" pressings.

Situation A seemed to occur on (even) first pressings. For instance, first pressings of the valuable Hank Mobley (1568) have a 63rd NYC label on one side and a 63rd NY 23 label on the other side. Likewise, many copies I have seen of Freddie Hubbard's Hub Cap (4073) have a 47 W 63 Inc label on one side, New York label on the other. Other examples with this label combination are Lou Donaldson Here 'T Is (4066) and both Turrentine Live at Minton's.

The opening sentence from my earlier post refers to situation B: the use of Lexington, 63rd NY 23, 63rd NYC, 63rd Inc. NYC or New York USA labels by the Blue Note Company after the takeover by Liberty (1966 or 1967). After the takeover, Blue Note used different pressing plants then the PlastyLite pressing plant they used before. From 1954 until 1966, all Blue Note records used to have an "ear" mark - which is actually a stylished "P" - pressed in the dead wax area. After the takeover, Liberty probably used its own pressing plants, but the records did not have "ears" anymore.

However, after the takeover, Blue Note did not throw away all the old labels, and only started using new "Division of Liberty" labels, but, at least for some titles they seem to have used old-stock labels.

For instance, I have seen copies of Lee Morgan Vol 2 (1541) with Lexington address labels, which were obviously pressed around 1967, as:

- the records did not have a flat edge;

- the dead wax did not show the ears,

- the records did not have deep grooves, and

- the covers were definitely newer (no heavy covers with "frame" lines).

Likewise, I have seen several copies of Hank Mobley and his All Stars (1544), same story: 63rd NY 23 labels - like the first pressing - but no flat edge, deep groove or ears and floppy covers. I can give you many, may more examples.

To make things even more complicated: I have two copies of Hub Cap (4073).

Both have split labels, one side 63rd, other NY USA label. However, one record has ears and is obviously older than the other. The other disc is lighter and has a serrated edge, exactly like the discs with "Division of Liberty" labels from the end of the sixties. So the record w/ears is probably from 1961 - I am certain as it was signed and dated by the previous owner -, the other from around 1967. But they have the same different labels!

You are right: the combination Lex - Liberty labels does not seem to exist, so I can't prove my "theory". I just wanted to show one should not only look to labels to determine if a record is a first pressing. Disc characteristics are more important than labels (only).

Peter

[Jim R]

Thanks Peter, that does help to clarify. Still kind of hard for me to believe there were still Lexington labels lying around after the Liberty takeover. At any rate, I know that it was a matter of getting some use out of on-hand resources, and that they certainly weren't looking ahead to crazy vinyl collectors analyzing all of this to death.

Disc characteristics would indeed be more reliable, and as for the earlier post about covers, I would put very little importance on that in determining anything. Covers are easily switched (moreso than labels, obviously)...

[wolff]

You are right: the combination Lex - Liberty labels does not seem to exist, so I can't prove my "theory".

FWIW....I asked a BN guru about Lex/Liberty label sightings and his reply was: Only once, on a Fats Navarro (1531 or 1532) which was a display item at my local record store and later destroyed in a building flood!!

[sidewinder]

You are right: the combination Lex - Liberty labels does not seem to exist, so I can't prove my "theory". 

FWIW....I asked a BN guru about Lex/Liberty label sightings and his reply was: Only once, on a Fats Navarro (1531 or 1532) which was a display item at my local record store and later destroyed in a building flood!!

←

Up again for this one, just spotted it.

[Daniel A]

Have both Leeway and Dmitry stopped posting here, BTW?

[wolff]

Have both Leeway and Dmitry stopped posting here, BTW?

←

Yep.

[andybleaden]

Shame

I remember this discussion and also remember having one of the NY/LIberty split label things. I was wondering where it came from but I guess that looking my organisation with a mismatch of out of date letterheads /business cards/organograms with people not there etc we do not keep up with the times.

Even people on our global email list (large Council!) who are now moved on to their second job...they left 18 months or so

Must be coming to something if people are using labels etc to forge these things but I remember people used to sell sealed some old mono blue notes ....that were never sealed in the first place

I also remember someone whether on here or on the old BNBB saying they had started swappin covers over to keep nice covers for tatty records...think of what confusion that will bring later

[Dmitry]

@Peter A  - tremendous explanation, and firmly to the point! Shame you haven't posted in years. You got knowledge.

A few weeks ago I was offered a very clean early pressing of Bennie Green - Soul Stirrin', BLP 1599. Seller was asking $275, which is really OK these days. When I went to look at the record, here's what was there: both labels read BLUE NOTE RECORDS INC*47 WEST 63rd ST*NYC . Blue Note has (R), so we know the labels are not original, but a very early repress, ca.1959-1962. So far, nothing terrible.
Heavy-duty laminated cover is also in VG+ condition, beautiful really, with just the corner and edge wear. The back lists titles to BLP 1574. BLUE NOTE RECORDS, 47 West 63rd St., New York 23 . Cover is obviously a 1958 original. 
Now let's go to the record. No deep groove, dead wax has no Plastylite EAR, but is stamped RVG and 9M. Obviously this is not a 1959-1962 repress, but a very early Liberty pressing, in VG+ (real VG+, not what passes for that these days), clean, maybe some faint scuffs and clean labels. We see this from time to time...Liberty-pressed vinyl (who knows where?), utilizing existing stock of BN labels and jackets. What we don't see often are early Liberty pressings with 47 West 63rd Street labels, and especially the original BLP 1500 series jackets. To press this particular record, Liberty used BN's 1958 stampers, so how different will it sound from the 1958 original, or even 1959-1962 repress?! 

After some kibitzing seller lowered the price to $200, but I passed on the record. $200 for a very clean early Liberty BLP 1500 series is not that unreasonable these days...they'll only get pricier as time goes.

 

 

 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I would have passed too. $200 is way more than I would have been willing to pay. The last few Liberty Blue Notes I bought cost me less than $25, which I know is not reasonable today but $200 is crazy.

[Dmitry]

The days of $25 or even $50 Liberties are just about gone. The clean early Liberty pressings of the classic and desirable titles are in the $150+ territory now, and rising.

[Teasing the Korean]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:54 AM, Dmitry said:

The days of $25 or even $50 Liberties are just about gone. The clean early Liberty pressings of the classic and desirable titles are in the $150+ territory now, and rising.

Glad I liberated as many as I did from the cutout bin. Those were the days...

[clifford_thornton]

Cover is a bit worn for $200 IMO but it's not a terrible price. I have seen Liberty-era LPs with W63rd labels from time to time. More frequently NY USA labels, however, even on 1500/early 4000 series titles.

[sidewinder]

I've got a couple of those Liberty pressings with 43W73rd labels - an Ike Quebec and an early Hubbard. Sonics are very good.