Mosaic Lp sets: Analog or Digital masters?

[Clunky]

anyone care to comment on the qualities of the recent Davis vinyls on Mosaic,

I'm mightly tempted to treat my turntable to the upcoming box ( Seven steps 1963/4) but there will of course be a significant price differential compared to getting it on CD, any thoughts?

[porcy62]

anyone care to comment on the qualities of the recent Davis vinyls on Mosaic,

I'm mightly tempted to treat my turntable to the upcoming box ( Seven steps 1963/4) but there will of course be a significant price differential compared to getting it on CD, any thoughts?

Greatly reccomended!!

To my ears trumpet sound is considerably better on vinyl, less "icy" than cd, but the last Columbia Boxes I heard (BB, OTSW, Blackhawk) sound better than the early ones (Evans, Quintet).

Maybe you can loose some "definition" that is not always a bad thing (loosing "high end" sound I mean)!

[sidewinder]

I like all of these Miles LP sets (I don't yet have the Blackhawk set so can't vouch for this one). I have most of them in CD and LP and in all cases the LPs offer a very noticeable improvement. Highly recommended, especially as they are in the Q-LP format. The CD sets tend to get played either in the car or whilst I am in the bath..

In fact one of my favourites sonically is the Miles/Gil set - which would seem to come from a digital source based on one of the previous posts?

Some of those on that digital list sound just fine to me. The Kenton/Holman/Russo for one - sounds mighty fine on the LP.

The Larry Young by the way sounds pretty good too. Certainly better than the CD (I have a couple from this set) but not nearly as good though as the NY USA pressings, if you can get hold of them. 'Talkin' About' and 'Unity' for example.

Edited August 31, 2004 by sidewinder

[Leeway]

You guys are cracking me up. They do sound better than the corresponding cds, you know. At least I think so.

Do I detect a little snobism?

Can't wait for you to start dumping your bad Mosaic digital vinyl.

Sorry Dmitry, bit I can't agree with you. I do not think digital LPs sound better than CDs, especially if the CD is one of the more recent 20 bit or 24 bit CDs. Digital vinyl still strikes me as an oxymoron. I'll pick up a digital LP only if the MUSIC (wassup Chuck ) s otherwise unavailable.

BTW, the title of this thread is Mosaic LP sets, digital or vinyl? - seems to me the topic is pretty clear stated, and the posts are on-point.

Edited August 31, 2004 by Leeway

[wolff]

I e-mailed this list to Mosaic:

The mastering of the then sold out vinyl sets is not addressed:

MR4-101 - Thelonious Monk Blue Notes

MR5-102 - Gerry Mulligan/Chet Baker Pacific Jazz & Capitol

MR3-103 - Albert Ammons/Meade Lux Lewis Blue Notes

MR5-104 - Clifford Brown Blue Note & Pacific Jazz

MR3-105 - Art Pepper Pacific Jazz

MR4-107 - Ike Quebec/John Hardee 40's

MR1-108 - Port of Harlem

MR4-109 - Edmond Hall/James P. Johnson/Sidney De Paris/Vic Dickenson

MR6-110 - Sidney Bechet Blue Notes

MR4-113 - Chet Baker Live Pacific Jazz

MR5-114 - Art Hodes Blue Notes

MR1-115 - Benny Moten/Jimmy Hamilton Blue Notes

MR5-116 - Bud Powell Blue Notes

MR5-117 - Buddy DeFranco/Sonny Clark Verves

MR1-119 - Pete Johnson/Earl Hines/Teddy Bunn

MR6-125 - Shorty Rogers Atlantic & EMI

MR6-126 - Johnny Hodges 1951-1955

MR5-133 - Grant Green/Sonny Clark Blue Notes

And got this reply:

The only set that "might" be digital is the Green/Clark (133). We're not

positive, but the rest are definately analog.

scott wenzel

Edited September 1, 2004 by wolff

[paul secor]

I e-mailed this list to Mosaic:

The mastering of the then sold out vinyl sets is not addressed:

MR4-101 - Thelonious Monk Blue Notes

MR5-102 - Gerry Mulligan/Chet Baker Pacific Jazz & Capitol

MR3-103 - Albert Ammons/Meade Lux Lewis Blue Notes

MR5-104 - Clifford Brown Blue Note & Pacific Jazz

MR3-105 - Art Pepper Pacific Jazz

MR4-107 - Ike Quebec/John Hardee 40's

MR1-108 - Port of Harlem

MR4-109 - Edmond Hall/James P. Johnson/Sidney De Paris/Vic Dickenson

MR6-110 - Sidney Bechet Blue Notes

MR4-113 - Chet Baker Live Pacific Jazz

MR5-114 - Art Hodes Blue Notes

MR1-115 - Benny Moten/Jimmy Hamilton Blue Notes

MR5-116 - Bud Powell Blue Notes

MR5-117 - Buddy DeFranco/Sonny Clark Verves

MR1-119 - Pete Johnson/Earl Hines/Teddy Bunn

MR6-125 - Shorty Rogers Atlantic & EMI

MR6-126 - Johnny Hodges 1951-1955

MR5-133 - Grant Green/Sonny Clark Blue Notes

And got this reply:

The only set that "might" be digital is the Green/Clark (133). We're not

positive, but the rest are definately analog.

scott wenzel

Whew! The Mosaics I have from this list sound better already!

[Dmitry]

So what's the bottom line here? Which sets are digitally mastered?

[wolff]

Here's what it looks like, assuming all info correct.

According to Brochure No 10, the following vinyl sets are digital:

MR6-120 - Paul Desmond 4tet w/ Jim Hall

MR3-121 - Ike Quebec 45 Sessions

MR4-122 - Chet Baker Pacific Jazz Studio

MR23-123,MR23-128 & MR20-134 - the 3 Commodore sets

MR6-127 - Cecil Taylor Candid

MR10-129 - Charlie Parker Dean Benedetti

MR9-130 - T-Bone Walker

MR4-131 - Stan Getz 5tet w/ Jimmy Raney

MR5-132 - George Lewis Blue Notes

MR12-135 - Count Basie Live Roulettes

MR6-136 - Stan Kenton Holman/Russo

MR9-137 - Larry Young Blue Notes

MR27-138 - Nat Cole Capitols

MR5-139 - Otis Spann/Lightin' Hopkins Candids

parts of MQ7-153 - Charles Brown Alladins ( LPs 1,2 & side one of LP 3 )

parts of MQ10-155 - Amos Milburn Alladins ( Lps 1,2,3,4 & side one of LP 5 )

parts of MQ6-165 - Illinois Jacquet 1945-50

most of MQ10-163 - Stan Kenton Capitol Studio

parts of MQ11-164 - Miles Davis/Gil Evans ( LPs 1,8,9,10 & 11 )

MR5-133 - Grant Green/Sonny Clark Blue Notes(Maybe)

[Chuck Nessa]

Isn't this supposed to be a discussion group about MUSIC?

I hear ya Chuck. But you HAVE stumbled into the VINYL thread, where geeks like us get to talk to other geeks about our love for analog. THe music is obviously most important and first, but this specific issue is also about getting what you pay for and expected out of a product. I suspect that most of the concerns expressed here come from the same place that mine do, which is that I love the sound of analog recordings and strive to find LPs that come as close as possible to the original product that was recorded in the studio (this doesn't always mean the oldest "label" or pressing, just the one that most accurately reproduces the recorded music it contains). In Mosaic, I had been under the impression that their LP issues were analog, and that they did go back to original tapes, etc. Finding out that they don't always is a disappointment, but not something that trumps the music within.

Yes, but you are talking to someone who manufactured VINYL for around 20 years and might know something about it.

Much, maybe the majority, of talk about analogue/vinyl on this and many other boards has very little to do with reality as I know it. Vinyl was a fine medium as is the cd - there are advantages and pitfalls for both. I cringe when I read comments I know are "stupid". Folks fretting about the transfers of "x" when you didn't have any complaints before are "stupid" to me. If you really loved the lps of "z" and are now "bummed" since you discovered it was mastered from a digital tape, I snicker. Nothing has changed to reduce your pleasure but your "investment".

Most of what concerns people of this ilk is economics. I really don't care what you "invested in" but do care about the delivery of the music.

[porcy62]

Yes, but you are talking to someone who manufactured VINYL for around 20 years and might know something about it.

Much, maybe the majority, of talk about analogue/vinyl on this and many other boards has very little to do with reality as I know it.  Vinyl was a fine medium as is the cd - there are advantages and pitfalls for both. I cringe when I read comments I know are "stupid".  Folks fretting about the transfers of "x" when you didn't have any complaints before are "stupid" to me.  If you really loved the lps of "z" and are now "bummed" since you discovered it was mastered from a digital tape, I snicker. Nothing has changed to reduce your pleasure but your "investment".

Most of what concerns people of this ilk is economics. I really don't care what you "invested in" but do care about the delivery of the music.

Dear Chuck,

I think the people on this thread are interested in music.

Is it harmful for you if we are interested also in discussing minor technical matters like this?

I do not like to be call "stupid" on a board. I though I could find here "stupid mates" for discussing "stupid thing" and change "stupid informations" like these.

I do not see any danger for the music industry and your business, on the contrary.

I do not see any danger for human beings in this "stupid" hobby, (we are not killing or insulting or polluting).

Is it wrong to care of the money you invest in the music?

I do not know, I do not care, if I were really interested in money, I would buy houses or some Hulliburton's stocks.

Anyway the cheapest way "to care the delivery of the music" as you said would be to copy a cd and you do not like it, do you? (as you do not like the european copyright laws).

BTW I am worried about a lot of things like my children health, pollution and the next american elections, the "digital curse" does not awake me in the middle of the night.

Edited September 2, 2004 by porcy62

[ajf67]

Isn't this supposed to be a discussion group about MUSIC?

I hear ya Chuck. But you HAVE stumbled into the VINYL thread, where geeks like us get to talk to other geeks about our love for analog. THe music is obviously most important and first, but this specific issue is also about getting what you pay for and expected out of a product. I suspect that most of the concerns expressed here come from the same place that mine do, which is that I love the sound of analog recordings and strive to find LPs that come as close as possible to the original product that was recorded in the studio (this doesn't always mean the oldest "label" or pressing, just the one that most accurately reproduces the recorded music it contains). In Mosaic, I had been under the impression that their LP issues were analog, and that they did go back to original tapes, etc. Finding out that they don't always is a disappointment, but not something that trumps the music within.

Yes, but you are talking to someone who manufactured VINYL for around 20 years and might know something about it.

Much, maybe the majority, of talk about analogue/vinyl on this and many other boards has very little to do with reality as I know it. Vinyl was a fine medium as is the cd - there are advantages and pitfalls for both. I cringe when I read comments I know are "stupid". Folks fretting about the transfers of "x" when you didn't have any complaints before are "stupid" to me. If you really loved the lps of "z" and are now "bummed" since you discovered it was mastered from a digital tape, I snicker. Nothing has changed to reduce your pleasure but your "investment".

Most of what concerns people of this ilk is economics. I really don't care what you "invested in" but do care about the delivery of the music.

Chuck,

First of all, I would never attempt to play "who knows more about making records" with you, and I didn't think anything in my post reflected any such sentiment. You have forgotten more than I know about record making, and I respect your knowledge. No question about it. I say that with all sincerity, and with no attempt at sarcasm or anything negative. Your contributions to this board are among the best things about it in my opinion.

But, I think you have mistakenly (and maybe understandably given that we don’t know each other and your only exposure to me is through written postings on this board and my two purchases from you) lumped me and others in with an "ilk" that I don't think I belong to. I think you may be basing your opinion of me (us) on a set of assumptions that I for one would quarrel with. Chief among them is the idea that I have an interest in LP versions of recordings for economic and/or “investment” reasons or some such thing. I guess i’ll chalk that up to your having dealt with too many “audiophiles” and people who don’t appreciate the actual music in your years in the business.

About my being "bummed" regarding my Monk LP Mosaic: Yes, I remain disappointed because there is no improvement in the sound on these LPs from the old 80s CDs that I have. Does that mean I’m not going to listen to them? No. Does it mean I don’t like the set? No. Does that reflect at all on the music within? No. Does it mean I’m going to sell it on E-Bay (something I have never done)? No.

I’m of an age when my first exposure to Monk”s Blue Notes was from the 80s CD versions. I have never liked the sound of them, but always assumed it was a problem with the original recording (and may still be). When I received the Mosaic LP set a while ago, I thought my assumptions regarding the original taping were correct as they didn’t seem to sound any better. But, I have never done a direct comparison of the two until now. What I am “bummed” about is the fact that I was not getting what I thought I was getting when I purchased the Mosaic. That’s it. Period.

Another assumption that I suspect is lurking is that I always consider an LP to be the best sounding version of a recording. Again, not true. But, with respect to 50’s Blue Note material, I have yet to hear any CD that is as good as an LP from back then. I assume (yes, an assumption!) that this is also true for the Monk material on the Blue Note Mosaic set. Who knows. I’m not rushing out to buy those LPs though.

In fact, in buying Mosaics, I usually go for the CD version. Ironic, given this thread! I think Mosaic does a nice job on them, I like the convenience of CDs, and they are cheaper than the LP versions. Perhaps that screws up my “investment” I don’t know.

What I don’t like is when I spring for the LP version, only for it to be a CD version in disguise.

Anyway, I hope we can get off this silly tangent and actually spend time talking about “reality as [you] know it.” I’d be very interested in hearing more about that.

Drew

[Leeway]

I don't know why anyone is apologizing. The topic of the thread is pretty clearly stated. The posts have been informative (this whole issue has been fairly well obscured until now). The issue is important from the point of view of collectors and of MUSIC LOVERS. If this thread is wrongheaded, then about 90% of the other threads on this board are no better. AJF67, I think you've been awfully nice about it all. I'm rather more pissed but I suppose there is little to be gained from further controversy about it.

[wolff]

It's nice to know what you are getting. In most cases Mosaic thought it important enough to let us know if LP was digital or analog.

I've heard both good and bad digital mastered LP's. I'm still amazed Ry Cooder's Jazz and Cowboy Junkies/Trinity Sessions are digital.

Quite a few recent reissues on vinyl are digital(Toshiba Blue Notes) and I avoid them unless I hear they sound great.

I want to thank Charlesp for his help on this thread. It looks like I/we have got it sorted out.

And in the interest of keeping vinyl alive, well done to Porcy for selling his Mosaic CD's and getting vinyl sets!!!

Hail Porcy62

[ajf67]

It's nice to know what you are getting. In most cases Mosaic thought it important enough to let us know if LP was digital or analog.

I've heard both good and bad digital mastered LP's. I'm still amazed Ry Cooder's Jazz and Cowboy Junkies/Trinity Sessions are digital.

Quite a few recent reissues on vinyl are digital(Toshiba Blue Notes) and I avoid them unless I hear they sound great.

I want to thank Charlesp for his help on this thread. It looks like I/we have got it sorted out.

And in the interest of keeping vinyl alive, well done to Porcy for selling his Mosaic CD's and getting vinyl sets!!!

Hail Porcy62

Damn, I just looked at my E-Bay watching list. Porcy, you did buy a few didn't you? I also am glad you started this thread. Thanks.

[porcy62]

Thanks guys!!!

I will tell you the story about my Lp's love.

I growned in Lp era, but when I went to university, the lack of room forced me to leave my loved records in my parent's house like my old Thorens, (I loved that machine!). Lps are heavy and bulky for a student that change a tiny room with a more tiny room every six months!! I recorded them on cassettes and moved to college, where I could find some fellow who had Lps to record.

Later I had to move to Rome for my job, and the same problem, room, prevent me to listen at vinyls, cds were getting cheaper so I went for them.

I bought a bigger apartment, my first owned apartment, 6 years ago, and I recovered my old vinyls and the Thorens from my parent's garage. I also found a good used Lp store two blocks from home!

Then I substituted the Thorens with a Linn and ... you know what happend afterwards!!

I do not know if analog sound is always better than digital one, I do not compare every single Lp with cd to decide what is the best one, infact I had not duplicates, only when I found outtakes or alternate takes on cd. My first choice is always vinyl when is available at reasonable price, I would not buy a Mobley original mono pressing for 3000 bucks, the Mosaics seems to me a great alternative.

I buy new cds of labels like Tzadik, Ecm, Label Bleu or italian jazz label like Red Records.

I do listen to them, I like new music, but with old music I go for vinyl.

I love the big colored covers, (Do you know someone who lost his times looking for people in "Sergent's Pepper's" cd cover without a microscope?) and I am getting older, I hate to use glasses for reading cd's notes!!

With Lp I rediscovered the pure pleasure to listen at music. I do not care about moderate pops, clicks and hiss, on the contrary, sometimes I found it more "human".

The relationship with Lp is more physical, you have to handle it with care, put the spike on the grooves and you can see it spinning.

I found all this enjoyable.

I work with computers, I am using a computer right now, I use them like useful machines to make my life more confortable, but a turntable is not only a machine, it's a pleasure to look at.

Maybe I am only an old "stupid" romantic guy worried to ageing and the analog era remembers me when I was young.

If so, I do not see any problems for anybody rather than me and my wife that is scared to handle my Lps.

My son loves my vinyl mania, infact when I bought the Classic reissues of Led Zeppelin he got my old cds!!!

P.S. Wolff, I am monitoring the Cd sets on Ebay, as soon I will have a correct idea of their value, I will put them on sale here, at a reasonable price.

Edited September 4, 2004 by porcy62

[adhoc]

I got this reply via email recently -

From about 122 to 135, we were foolishly mastering LPs with digital masters.

MC

[dsockel]

Dang. 4 years to get a reply from Mosaic.

I knew that they were interested in preserving artifacts from the past, but did they have to keep the Pony Express mail servioce around too?

Just kidding. I just bought the Monk Blue Note in Vinyl off eBay as was pleased to see Cuscuna's response.

Thanks.