Oscar Peterson – why did those greats disliked him

[Alon Marcus]

This thread is about OP not about che.

[Guest che]

This thread is about OP not about che.

And who said it was?

Che.

[Guest che]

I'm talking if I was in Che's shoes.

And that was the point of my question.

Stay loose Brother

Che.

[Daniel A]

The initial post contains a link to the Thelonious Monk blindfold test which is no longer working. I may have missed that it has been up somewhere, but anyway: the BFT is quoted in full in this thread at Jazzcorner:

http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/sh...read.php?t=2331

[MartyJazz]

from things that i've read, and heard, i don't think that monk liked to listen to anyone's music except his own.

Well, he definitely dug Bud.

[Nate Dorward]

Oscar Peterson had said negative things about Monk prior to the blindfold test (the usual "can't play" stuff), in my recollection, which is the subtext of Monk's going to the bathroom there.

[Guest che]

Ok so I think I will give the concert a miss

Che.

[Cornelius]

"[...] a glorification of the obvious."

And glorious it is!

Edited March 24, 2005 by Cornelius

[Alon Marcus]

The initial post contains a link to the Thelonious Monk blindfold test which is no longer working. I may have missed that it has been up somewhere, but anyway: the BFT is quoted in full in this thread at Jazzcorner:

http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/sh...read.php?t=2331

Thanks, I'll edit my initial post.

[Alon Marcus]

Thelonious Monk

The Blindfold Test

"It is the aim of the Blindfold Test to elicit the honest subjective reaction of the listener. Secondarily the musician blindfolded usually attempts to identify the artists on each record, though it is always made clear before the interview that the evaluations are far more important than the guesswork."

Leonard Feather.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not until the Blindfold Test had been appearing for almost 20 years did Thelonious Monk participate as a subject. The reason was clear: Monk is not the most voluble of personalities, and it seemed improbable that an interview could be obtained.

One day in 1966 Monk broke his long silence. Accompanied by his wife Nellie, he sat, stood or paced his way through eight records. When moments of silence engulfed him, Nellie succeeded in prodding him.

After the first minute of the first record, it became obvious that the only way to complete an interview and retain Monk's interest would be by concentrating mainly on other artists' versions of his own compositions. Accordingly, Records 2 - 6 were all Monk tunes. At this point, he seemed interested enough to listen to a couple of non-Monk works. He was given no information about any of the records played.

Monk's reaction to Record No. 7 may have a more than coincidental relationship to the opinions expressed openly by Oscar Peterson concerning Monk's own value as a pianist.

1. Andrew Hill. Flight 19 from 'Point of Departure' on Blue Note.

(After two minutes, Monk rises from his seat, starts wandering around the room and looking out of the window. When it becomes clear he is not listening, the record is taken off.)

TM: The view here is great, and you have a crazy stereo system.

LF: Is that all you have to say about that record?

TM: About any record.

LF: I'll find a few things you'll want to say something about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Art Pepper. Rhythm-a-ning from 'Gettin' Together' on Contemporary.

(With Conte Candoli, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb.)

TM: He added another note to the song. A note that's not supposed to be there. (Sings.) See what I mean?

LF: Did I hear you say the tempo was wrong?

TM: No, all tempos is right.

LF: How about the solos? Which of them did you like?

TM: It sounded like some slow solos speeded up, to me.

LF: How about the rhythm section?

TM: Well, I mean, the piece swings by itself. To keep up with the song, you have to swing.

LF: How many stars would you rate it?

TM: (Indicating Mrs Monk.) Ask her.

LF: It's your opinion I'm asking.

TM: You asked me for my opinion, I gave you my opinion.

LF: Okay, let's forget ratings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Dizzy Gillespie. Medley: I Can't Get Started / Round Midnight from 'Something Old - Something New.'

(With James Moody on alto.)

TM: Dizzy, He had a crazy sound, but he got into that upper register, and the upper register took the tone away from him. That was the Freddy Webster sound too, you know, that sound of Dizzy's.

(Later) That's my song! Well, if that's not Diz, it's someone who plays just like him. Miles did at one time too.

LF: You like the way they put the two tunes together?

TM: I didn't notice that. Play it again. (Later) Yes, that's the Freddy Webster sound. Maybe you don't remember Freddy Webster; you weren't on the scene at the time.

LF: I remember Freddy Webster. And the records he made with Sarah.

TM: Remember I Could Make You Love Me? The introduction? Play that for me.

LF:I don't think I can find it. You think Freddy influenced Diz?

TM: Every sound influenced Diz. He had that kind of mind, you know? And he influenced everything too.

LF: You liked the alto player on here too?

TM: Everybody sounded good on there; I mean, the harmony and everything was crazy . . . play it again!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Bob Florence. Straight, No Chaser from 'Here and Now' on Liberty.

(John Audino, lead trumpet; Herbie Harper, trombone & Bob Florence, arranger.)

LF: You liked the arrangement?

TM: Did you make the arrangement? It was crazy.

LF: No.

TM: It was a bunch of musicians who were together, playing an arrangement. It sounded so good, it made me like the song better? Solos . . . the trombone player sounded good . . . that was a good lead trumpet player too . . . I've never heard that before. I don't know how to rate it, but I'd say it was top-notch.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Phineas Newborn. Well, You Needn't from the 'Great Jazz Piano of Phineas Newborn' on Contemporary.

TM: He hit the inside wrong - didn't have the right changes. It's supposed to be major ninths, and he's playing ninths (walks to the piano, demonstrates). It starts with a D-flat Major 9 . . . See what I mean? What throws me off, too, is the cat sounds like Bud Powell. Makes it hard for me to say anything about it. It's not Bud; it's somebody sounding like him.

LF: Outside of that, did you like the general feeling?

TM: I enjoy all piano players. All pianists have got five stars for me . . . but I was thinking about the wrong changes, so I didn't pay too much attention to the rest of it. Maybe you better play it again.

(Later) It's crazy to sound like Bud Powell, but seems like the piano player should be able to think of something else too. Why get stuck with that Bud Powell sound?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Bud Powell. Ruby, My Dear from 'Giants of Jazz' on Columbia.

TM: That's Bud Powell! . . . All I can say is, he has a remarkable memory. I don't know what to say about him - he is a remarkable person, musically.

LF: You think Bud is in his best form there?

TM: (Laughs) No comment about him, or the piano . . . He's just tired, stopped playing, doesn't want to play no more. I don't know what's going through his mind. But you know how he's influenced all of the piano players.

LF: Of course. I was just questioning whether this is his best work.

Mrs.Monk: (To Monk) You don't think so.

TM: Of course not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Oscar Peterson. Easy Listenin' Blues from 'With Respect to Nat'

(With Herb Ellis and Ray Brown.)

TM: Which is the way to the toilet? (Waits to end of record, leaves room, returns . . laughs.) Well, you see where I went. (To Mrs.Monk) Could you detect the piano player?

LF: How about the guitar player?

TM: Charlie Christian spoiled me for everyone else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Denny Zeitlin. Carole's Garden from 'Carnival' on Columbia.

(With Jerry Granelli, drums)

LF: You liked that one?

TM: I like all music.

LF: Except the kind that makes you go to the toilet.

TM: No, but you need that kind too . . It reminded me of Bobby Timmons, and that's got to be good. Rhythm section has the right groove too. Drummer made me think of Art Blakey. Hey, play that again.

(Later) Yeah! He sounds like a piano player! (Hums theme) You can keep changing keys all the time doing that. Sounds like something that was studied and figured out. And he can play it; you know what's happening with this one. Yeah, he was on a Bobby Timmons kick. He knows what's happening.

[mikeweil]

The Oscar Peterson Trio with Sam Jones and Bobby Durham happened to be the first jazz concert I ever attended, in Munich, back in 1970 or 1971, and i remember I was impressed by the virtuosity and flash, but it stayed in my memory more for the fact that it was my first experience of that type than for its musical content. The second, the next year, Herbie Mann's quintet with Steve Marcus, Sonny Sharrock, Miroslav Vitous, and Bruno Carr, I remember much more vividly.

You should take in to account that Peterson suffered a stroke several years ago, and I remember an interview where he stated he had to re-learn a lot - to me his statements sounded like it was two different players before and after. I wouldn't pay that much for anybody except the Duke!

I think it is telling that I have only "Night Train" in my collection - there are a lot of other pianists that touched me more than he did, and there are a number of technically lesser equipped players among them. Technique is only the surface of the music, which is important, but more or less superficial, IMHO. The personality is what counts, and I agree with much of what was said here about him being very good in various respects, but not that "deep".

I don't have any problem with others liking him, but I dislike others putting down pianists I like - you can't argue about taste. One should always talk with respect about others, even if it is not your taste, that's all.

[Jazz Kat]

Thelonious Monk

The Blindfold Test

"It is the aim of the Blindfold Test to elicit the honest subjective reaction of the listener. Secondarily the musician blindfolded usually attempts to identify the artists on each record, though it is always made clear before the interview that the evaluations are far more important than the guesswork."

Leonard Feather.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not until the Blindfold Test had been appearing for almost 20 years did Thelonious Monk participate as a subject. The reason was clear: Monk is not the most voluble of personalities, and it seemed improbable that an interview could be obtained.

One day in 1966 Monk broke his long silence. Accompanied by his wife Nellie, he sat, stood or paced his way through eight records. When moments of silence engulfed him, Nellie succeeded in prodding him.

After the first minute of the first record, it became obvious that the only way to complete an interview and retain Monk's interest would be by concentrating mainly on other artists' versions of his own compositions. Accordingly, Records 2 - 6 were all Monk tunes. At this point, he seemed interested enough to listen to a couple of non-Monk works. He was given no information about any of the records played.

Monk's reaction to Record No. 7 may have a more than coincidental relationship to the opinions expressed openly by Oscar Peterson concerning Monk's own value as a pianist.

1. Andrew Hill. Flight 19 from 'Point of Departure' on Blue Note.

(After two minutes, Monk rises from his seat, starts wandering around the room and looking out of the window. When it becomes clear he is not listening, the record is taken off.)

TM: The view here is great, and you have a crazy stereo system.

LF: Is that all you have to say about that record?

TM: About any record.

LF: I'll find a few things you'll want to say something about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Art Pepper. Rhythm-a-ning from 'Gettin' Together' on Contemporary.

(With Conte Candoli, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb.)

TM: He added another note to the song. A note that's not supposed to be there. (Sings.) See what I mean?

LF: Did I hear you say the tempo was wrong?

TM: No, all tempos is right.

LF: How about the solos? Which of them did you like?

TM: It sounded like some slow solos speeded up, to me.

LF: How about the rhythm section?

TM: Well, I mean, the piece swings by itself. To keep up with the song, you have to swing.

LF: How many stars would you rate it?

TM: (Indicating Mrs Monk.) Ask her.

LF: It's your opinion I'm asking.

TM: You asked me for my opinion, I gave you my opinion.

LF: Okay, let's forget ratings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Dizzy Gillespie. Medley: I Can't Get Started / Round Midnight from 'Something Old - Something New.'

(With James Moody on alto.)

TM: Dizzy, He had a crazy sound, but he got into that upper register, and the upper register took the tone away from him. That was the Freddy Webster sound too, you know, that sound of Dizzy's.

(Later) That's my song! Well, if that's not Diz, it's someone who plays just like him. Miles did at one time too.

LF: You like the way they put the two tunes together?

TM: I didn't notice that. Play it again. (Later) Yes, that's the Freddy Webster sound. Maybe you don't remember Freddy Webster; you weren't on the scene at the time.

LF: I remember Freddy Webster. And the records he made with Sarah.

TM: Remember I Could Make You Love Me? The introduction? Play that for me.

LF:I don't think I can find it. You think Freddy influenced Diz?

TM: Every sound influenced Diz. He had that kind of mind, you know? And he influenced everything too.

LF: You liked the alto player on here too?

TM: Everybody sounded good on there; I mean, the harmony and everything was crazy . . . play it again!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Bob Florence. Straight, No Chaser from 'Here and Now' on Liberty.

(John Audino, lead trumpet; Herbie Harper, trombone & Bob Florence, arranger.)

LF: You liked the arrangement?

TM: Did you make the arrangement? It was crazy.

LF: No.

TM: It was a bunch of musicians who were together, playing an arrangement. It sounded so good, it made me like the song better? Solos . . . the trombone player sounded good . . . that was a good lead trumpet player too . . . I've never heard that before. I don't know how to rate it, but I'd say it was top-notch.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Phineas Newborn. Well, You Needn't from the 'Great Jazz Piano of Phineas Newborn' on Contemporary.

TM: He hit the inside wrong - didn't have the right changes. It's supposed to be major ninths, and he's playing ninths (walks to the piano, demonstrates). It starts with a D-flat Major 9 . . . See what I mean? What throws me off, too, is the cat sounds like Bud Powell. Makes it hard for me to say anything about it. It's not Bud; it's somebody sounding like him.

LF: Outside of that, did you like the general feeling?

TM: I enjoy all piano players. All pianists have got five stars for me . . . but I was thinking about the wrong changes, so I didn't pay too much attention to the rest of it. Maybe you better play it again.

(Later) It's crazy to sound like Bud Powell, but seems like the piano player should be able to think of something else too. Why get stuck with that Bud Powell sound?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Bud Powell. Ruby, My Dear from 'Giants of Jazz' on Columbia.

TM: That's Bud Powell! . . . All I can say is, he has a remarkable memory. I don't know what to say about him - he is a remarkable person, musically.

LF: You think Bud is in his best form there?

TM: (Laughs) No comment about him, or the piano . . . He's just tired, stopped playing, doesn't want to play no more. I don't know what's going through his mind. But you know how he's influenced all of the piano players.

LF: Of course. I was just questioning whether this is his best work.

Mrs.Monk: (To Monk) You don't think so.

TM: Of course not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Oscar Peterson. Easy Listenin' Blues from 'With Respect to Nat'

(With Herb Ellis and Ray Brown.)

TM: Which is the way to the toilet? (Waits to end of record, leaves room, returns . . laughs.) Well, you see where I went. (To Mrs.Monk) Could you detect the piano player?

LF: How about the guitar player?

TM: Charlie Christian spoiled me for everyone else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Denny Zeitlin. Carole's Garden from 'Carnival' on Columbia.

(With Jerry Granelli, drums)

LF: You liked that one?

TM: I like all music.

LF: Except the kind that makes you go to the toilet.

TM: No, but you need that kind too . . It reminded me of Bobby Timmons, and that's got to be good. Rhythm section has the right groove too. Drummer made me think of Art Blakey. Hey, play that again.

(Later) Yeah! He sounds like a piano player! (Hums theme) You can keep changing keys all the time doing that. Sounds like something that was studied and figured out. And he can play it; you know what's happening with this one. Yeah, he was on a Bobby Timmons kick. He knows what's happening.

That was very interesting and enjoying to read.

[AllenLowe]

Peterson is a fool blinded by his own supposed technique, and Monk was reacting appropriately - more than one first-rate jazz pianist has told me privately that he does not like Peterson's playing, which is, IMHO, 'jazzy" but not really jazz - Peterson had commented that Monk was a composer but not really a pianist -

Edited March 25, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

the thing about technique is this - there are ten pianists I have heard who can sound like O.P., but not a one who can truly sound like Monk - though I have heard Barry Harris do a beautiful job, and Bud Powell had a deep understanding of Monk's music -

[Nate Dorward]

Incidentally has anyone read Peterson's recent autobiography?

[md655321]

Speaking of Blindfold tests, a few years ago my lady friend photocopied every blindfold test from 1950 to 1980 for me for Christmas. Needless to say, I'm marrying her.

But if anyone gets a specific question on a blindfold test of any artist, i can look it up pretty easily.

Its very interesting to see who knows what they are talking about and who doesnt. Especially with the new music that was being blasted (like early opinions on trane and ornette.) The Bill Evans ones are usually fantastic, he can recgonize anything, and he usually goes into a bit of detail harmonically as well. Very impressive.

[Dave James]

Two things bother me about O.P. First, there's no such thing as space. He has a note ready for any and every occasion. The antithesis of a more taseful pianist, like an Ahmad Jamal. Second, and althouth he's not nearly as aggregious in this regard as Keith Jarrett, he vocalizes. I can't even put into words how annoying that is. Not to mention ego-centric. I'm gonna be like Mike. I have one O.P. led date in my entire collection. Night Train. I doubt I'll ever feel compelled to add another.

Up over and out.

[John Tapscott]

I wouldn't pay 40-60 pounds to see Oscar Peterson now, no.  Keep in mind he's been really affected in recent years by a stroke--is he still playing one-handed (as he was for a time)?

I saw him once in the 1990s, it was OK but I remember nothing of it.

Thanks for the info.

Here is the line up for the concert I was considering going to:

Sunday 3 July 2005 8.00pm

An evening with Oscar Peterson

Ulf Wakenius guitar

Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen bass

Alvin Queen drums

Surprised to see Alvin Queen as the drummer. Any of you British folk know what's happened to Martin Drew - Oscar's regular drummer over the past twenty + years? In Oscar's 2003 DVD - A Night in Vienna, Martin looked very overweight and uncomfortable, though he played well. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that he has suffered some health problems.

I agree with Nate. I wouldn't spend 40-60 pounds to see OP today, though I do recommend that Vienna DVD. You can likely buy it for less than half the price of the concert ticket. You'll get a very good idea of how OP plays these days. I think he still plays quite well and puts on a satisfying show overall, though his left hand is very restricted. He plays with his left hand at a funny angle over the keyboard, sort of how Carl Perkins used to play (I've seen that in photos). I guarantee that OP's concert set list will be 90% the same as the DVD set list.

[Daniel A]

Surprised to see Alvin Queen as the drummer. Any of you British folk know what's happened to Martin Drew - Oscar's regular drummer over the past twenty + years?

He appears to be playing with "The New Jazz Couriers". His website features rather recent reviews, so it seems he's still playing.

http://homepages.tesco.net/~martindrew/index.htm

[Big Wheel]

Second, and althouth he's not nearly as aggregious in this regard as Keith Jarrett, he vocalizes. I can't even put into words how annoying that is. Not to mention ego-centric.

Dave, I don't think it usually has to do with ego. This is simply how many, many pianists go about improvising. Bud Powell did it too, as did others who are less audible about it. The idea is sort of that by forcing yourself to focus on the singing, you take the emphasis off of what your hands are doing, or what looks theoretically good on the keyboard but may not make an attractive melody. You're letting your ear take over instead of your eyes and logical brain.

[Dave James]

BW,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense from a technical standpoint, but I still think it discounts the listener. And, perhaps more importantly, it distracts from the music. Certainly, Peterson isn't in Jarrett's league when it comes to vocalizing, so it's not quite as offputting. Jarrett sounds like Jerry Lewis on Benzedrine.

Up over and out.

[Guy Berger]

For what it's worth, I saw Peterson (w/my dad) about a year ago and it wasn't great but not bad either. He did start out with a really nice boogaloo, though, and the guitarist (Wakenius) is good.

Guy

[mikeweil]

the thing about technique is this - there are ten pianists I have heard who can sound like O.P., but not a one who can truly sound like Monk - though I have heard Barry Harris do a beautiful job, and Bud Powell had a deep understanding of Monk's music -

- couldn't say it any better!