Oscar Peterson – why did those greats disliked him

[couw]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

have what?

[RDK]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

have what?

As simple and as profound a statement as could be said about any jazz great?

[couw]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

have what?

As simple and as profound a statement as could be said about any jazz great?

you mean Eric Alexander?

[JSngry]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

have what?

The reason why so many people are less than thrilled about Oscar Peterson.

And, I suppose, the reason so many are.

Nothing wrong with what he does or how he does it or who he is or anything like that. His playing just bores me more often than not, because, I guess, he's just being Oscar Peterson, and Oscar Peterson is apparently a person who has little to tell me, musically, that I find to be interesting, much less being worth too much of my time. I have a life, perspectives, and interests of my own, thank you, Oscar Peterson does too, and there's apparently very little common ground between them. I'm ok with that, and I'm more than certain that Oscar is too, or would be if he even had half a notion that I even existed. I'd send him a letter to find out, but frankly I don't really care, not even slightly. We have that kind of relationship, Oscar Peterson and I do.

Can't like everybody, nor should you. Different strokes, and all that.

[AmirBagachelles]

How is his Harold Arlen songbook on Verve? I have never found a curiousity for OP or much of anything so straight-ahead, but there is a paucity of good Arlen collections so what the heck. Anybody know OP's?

[take5]

There´s a strong tendency here to overrate each and every Blue Note musician and underrate every non Blue Note (and specially if he´s Verve-related) musician.

Do people really judge music according to which record label they were signed?

[JSngry]

There´s a strong tendency here to overrate each and every Blue Note musician and underrate every non Blue Note (and specially if he´s Verve-related) musician.

Do people really judge music according to which record label they were signed?

As somebody who's more than a little fond of the Verve output of Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Johnny Hodges, Illinoins Jacquet, Bud Powell, Lee Konitz, Jimmy Giuffre, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, Stan Getz (a lot of it anyway), Dizzy Gillespie, and I don't know who all else (in spite of Oscar Peterson being on so much of it! ), I wondered about that one myself.

[P.L.M]

His playing just bores me more often than not, because, I guess, he's just being Oscar Peterson, and Oscar Peterson is apparently a person who has little to tell me, musically, that I find to be interesting, much less being worth too much of my time.

The same here.

Between us (I mean my "jazz" friends and I) we use to call him, the type writting machine (hope it's the correct translation of "machine à écrire".)

[Larry Kart]

"Ray Brown, NHOP, Ed Thigpen, John Heard and the many, many other players didn't play with him because he's an ass or show-off. Just ask them (or read what they have said about playing with OP)."

Deus -- Take a look at Chuck's account posted yesterday. He was talking to one of the players you mention above.

[John Tapscott]

"Ray Brown, NHOP, Ed Thigpen, John Heard and the many, many other players didn't play with him because he's an ass or show-off. Just ask them (or read what they have said about playing with OP)."

Deus -- Take a look at Chuck's account posted yesterday. He was talking to one of the players you mention above.

Well now, let's try to figure this one out. You know off the top it's not Thigpen, because Oscar as far as I know never played any duo gigs with a drummer. Brown? Well, if it's him then what he said to Chuck goes against everything that Brown has said for the record about OP. There always seemed to be great musical respect and bond between these guys. Remember that Ray was first musician OP played with onstage in the US. They were together for 17 years.

NHOP - well he's played with OP off and on (mostly on) for 30 plus years. On the recent 2003 video there seems to be a great deal of repect between them. In fact, it appears that OP looks to NHOP for some guidance a couple of times. So I suppose it's possible it's NHOP, but I don't think you play with a guy for thirty years with the attitude of Chuck's friend.

That leaves one more....

[paul secor]

I'm always surprised how "in" it is and was to trash OP, how everyone but him seems to know how to play piano (much better, of course), how everything he can do is just showmanship, a bag of tricks, ***t and crap.

I'm a amazed how people can spend hours, days, months, years and entire careers glorífying some second-rate Blue Note "I sound like everyone else who ever recorded on Blue Note" guy while at the same time using all the often-heard, a thousand times repeated cliché arguments against Oscar Peterson ... and think that's really cool.

It's tiring.

And it doesn't make the criticism any more valid if you quote someone who distanced himself from the artist in question, presumably so he wouldn't be called "uncool".

Sickening, in fact, especially if you look at some of the artists promoted heavily around here, who don't have anything to show than, well, a bag of tricks.

Pretty small bag at that.

Just my 2 cents worth.

As a friend of mine used to say, "Name names". Then things might really get interesting.

My own thoughts concerning Mr. Peterson are mixed. He's played on a fair number of sessions as an accompanist that I've enjoyed. I don't have the energy to look through my collection, but the Verve LP he recorded with Louis Armstrong and the duo set on Pablo with Clark Terry come to mind. (The latter is a collaboration, but to my ears it's CT's show.)

On the other hand, I've never purchased a recording simply because Oscar Peterson played on it - I guess that speaks for itself. On the one occasion I heard him play live (solo), I was so disappointed and frustrated (I felt like I was hearing a display of cliches - no, I WAS hearing a display of cliches) that I left at intermission. I'm sure that at least part of the reason for the knocks on Oscar Peterson is that to a lot of listeners he's one of the most overrated jazz musicians. If he didn't get the amount of press, adulation, and $ that he receives, his playing probably wouldn't receive nearly the amount of negative comments that it does.

To name a name - and a Blue Note name: I find Herbie Hancock less interesting than Oscar Peterson - Oscar Peterson the accompanist, that is. That's strictly a personal opinion - I'm sure that many others disagree.

[John Tapscott]

I spent a night at a club OP was playing, and a friend was his duo partner. I knew my friend was being paid amazing bucks (by Norman) to tour with Oscar. At the first break my friend sat with me and outlined all the "tricks" (look and sound astounding at the moment but are really easy) to look for in the next set. He named them in order and they did show up that way.

What's the big deal about this?This is no shocking revelation about OP. It could probably be said about 95% + of working musicians.

I bet any fan (not a sideman), but fan who travelled with a musician for a week and heard him/her play either a concert or 3 sets a night would soon know where to listen for all the "tricks". You could probably name the set list, know in general terms what each musician in the group would play and when, know where all the solos are, how long they would be, etc. etc. etc. Surely no one belives that every time a jazz musician gets up on stage, he/she plays something new and original that they've never played before and worked on beforehand.

Not to put him down at all, but the very same thing could be said about the Bill Evans trio.

[cannonball-addict]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

have what?

As simple and as profound a statement as could be said about any jazz great?

you mean Eric Alexander?

LOL

[neveronfriday]

"Ray Brown, NHOP, Ed Thigpen, John Heard and the many, many other players didn't play with him because he's an ass or show-off. Just ask them (or read what they have said about playing with OP)."

Deus -- Take a look at Chuck's account posted yesterday. He was talking to one of the players you mention above.

And?

[Larry Kart]

Deus -- "And?" The passage you quoted means that one of OP's distinguished partners whose presence alongside him you cite as undeniable evidence of OP's high musical worth in fact felt (and stated) that in his opinion OP's work was quite mechanical.

[Larry Kart]

Sorry, I didn't mean the passage Deus quoted - -that was me -- but Chuck's account yesterday of his conversation with OP's musical colleague.

[neveronfriday]

... whose presence alongside him you cite as undeniable evidence of OP's high musical worth in fact felt (and stated) that in his opinion OP's work was quite mechanical.

Well, I guess I stand corrected then.

Oscar Peterson is a mechanical player.

Cheers!

Edited September 1, 2004 by deus62

[John L]

Monk is as much Monk as OP is OP.

Well, there you have it!

Oscar Peterson is really Oscar Pettiford?

[Guy Berger]

And I agree with deus62 in most of his assertions.

There´s a strong tendency here to overrate each and every Blue Note musician and underrate every non Blue Note (and specially if he´s Verve-related) musician.

I think you guys are right, but I'm too chicken to name musicians...

Guy

[jazzbo]

You're on to something. I think for example that Buckshot LeFunque is not a better player than Cannonball Adderley. And the Verve Jimmy Smith is just as good a player as the Blue Note Jimmy Smith.

Course that's just my opinion. . . .

[JSngry]

Hey - I like the second BN Grant Green as much as the first one!

But not quite as much as the third one.

[EKE BBB]

I was going to say something about Hank Mobley and Tina Brooks, but I´d better shut up my f*****g mouth...

[king ubu]

I was going to say something about Hank Mobley and Tina Brooks, but I´d better shut up my f*****g mouth...

Hank Mobley sucks!

[EKE BBB]

Hank Mobley sucks!

And Tina Brooks? Does he suck too?

Edited September 3, 2004 by EKE BBB

[Alon Marcus]

I was following the discussion with great interest and would like to recollect my thoughts about it. First of all: OP is a great pianist (for me of course) when comparing his imagination and creativity with many other players, but he certainly has his flaws (like any other human being). These flaws are more obvious than in many other artists because he was exposed to a big dose of criticism.

Second thing: many of the critics are right when talking about his flaws, but if you like an artist's work you usually accept his good and bad sides in one package.

Third and last for a while: the truth actually is that OP was very lucky being criticized a lot. This means he was being exposed, listened and analyzed, which is more than many others ever got.

P.S.

Hank Mobley, whom I also enjoy very much, is a good example for a musician that was not given the proper attention for a long time and today many jazz fans have a tendency of over praising him (contrary to Oscar). Please don't say that he and Tina Brooks suck. You are talking about musicians that dedicated their lives to creating jazz and were very spirited musicians.